First ever negative encouter -Robinson Twp

[Montanya]

Ok well it was bound to happen eventually had a negative encouter with the Robinson Township police while OC'ing in Robinson Mall. I will say I am extremely disappointed in myself afterwords but really had no desired to be arrested on my birthday (July 4th) and in the end gave up more of my rights than I should have but in the end I was not arrested or charged, just asked to leave so... the following is my best accounting, take it easy on me It would appear an open carry training memo is needed for the Robinson Township PD.

July 4th, 2008 -
On Friday July 4th 2008, I was stopped by 2 Robinson Township police officers in Robinson Mall in the food court near Dairy Queen. Office 1 says “Hey, come here a minute” he then asked me “What’s up with that?” nodding toward my gun. I replied “What do you mean?” Officer 1:Why are you carrying that out in the open like that? I replied “I always carry this way” He said “you have a permit for that” I indicated that I did but didn’t need one while carrying openly. He said “this isn’t the wild west, you can’t just carry it openly like that” Officer 2 (who during this entire encounter was 1000% more polite and courteous) said that even when he is off duty he always carries his concealed. I replied that perhaps that was what worked for him, and that is is right with a LTCF to carry however he wants, but that I was violating no laws. Officer 1 then asks me for my id, I indicated that I was not required by law to show him that as I had broken no laws and they had no reasonable suspicion that I had broken any laws. He very abruptly said “you most certainly do need to show your ID when requested by a police officer” I indicated that I was aware of the law, and I did not. He insisted that I did have to show him so I did. He then asked if I had my LTCF on me, I indicated that I did, and he requested to see it. He then requested that I take it out of my wallet for him. Officer 2 and I stood there and I gave him info on open carry while officer 1 walked away with my drivers license and LTCF. I gave officer 2 the web address for paopencarry.org and opencarry.org and indicated the situation in Dickson City has been in the news and they are now being sued for a similar encounter and was surprosed he had not heard about it" Officer 2 says “Well I guess we’ll be next then huh?” I said you never know. Officer 1 returned indicating that the mall rules state that weapons are not permitted on the property, I said that is fine, I was not aware of that but if that is the mall rules, the mall management is welcome to ask me to leave but as of that point I had not been asked to leave. Officer 1 gave me a paper that had the mall rules on it indicating that weapons were not permitted on the property and several mall security guards arrived. He asked the one woman what he rules were in regards to firearms , she indicated that they were not permitted on mall property. He said “well what do you do if you see someone with one” She indicated they would be ejected from the mall and asked to leave the firearm in their car and return without it. I indicated that I did not want to leave my weapon in the car and would not be returning there. I was given back my id and ltcf and asked if it was ok if I left via the same door on the lower level that I entered in and both mall security and robinson pd indicated that I could. So I proceeded to the exit and left. I did not however get the officers names that were involved or cards, as this was the first time I have ever had an encounter with law enforcement in regards to open carry I was extremely nervous as it certainly appeared that officer 1 had no desire to discuss anything in regards to law and only wished to enforce the mall rules.

[apython]

Sounds like you did pretty well to me. Good job!

[Montanya]

Originally Posted by apython

Sounds like you did pretty well to me. Good job!

Was really mad at myself for submitting to their illegal requests for my id and ltcf as well as not getting their cards or name. At the end of the encouter I was standing in the food court with like 5 security guards and 3 robinson police standing around me. I was just glad at no point did they request to handle my firearm, cause I like to think I would have had to been under arrest before I left them take my firearm.

I just really went over that scenario in my mind 10,000 times and not once did it end up with me giving up my papers. But I will certainly chalk it up as a learning experience, I left with no arrest, no handcuffs, educated a couple officers, perhaps some good will come out of it, as the 2nd officer did write down the websites I gave him, and I indicated that having an OC'ed firearm is no basis for a stop and ID per the state supreme court, and he seemed surprised by that and said he would check into that.

[J.W.]

Its hard to really say how you will react to a situation like that until is actually happens. I will say that if i ever end up in a situation like that, i would probably let them know that i will comply to thier requests but am doing so unwillingly. It sounds like you handled it pretty well. Nice job!!

[Statkowski]

Here's R.T.P.D.'s address:

1000 Church Hill Road
Robinson Township, PA 15205
412.788.8115
412.788.8131 fax
info@robinsonpd.com

[jon'76]

Happy Birthday and good job educating the officers. I would have refused, but I respect your decision to comply.

[Montanya]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

Here's R.T.P.D.'s address:

1000 Church Hill Road
Robinson Township, PA 15205
412.788.8115
412.788.8131 fax
info@robinsonpd.com

yeah I sent an email to them with the open carry education memo indicating that per my encounter with 2 of their officers it is apparent that this information should be distributed asap to all officers and included in department training as neither officer was aware of oc laws. I would assume officer 1 who walked away with my id's and returned probably called into someone who informed him of the laws, and that is why they did not try and charge me with some bogus charge.

[PisnNapalm]

Happy Birthday!

I think you did ok. It's an intimidating thing to go through. No one was arrested and perhaps those two officers will take it upon themselves to learn more about PA gun laws.

[c.sander]

happy birthday Monty sorry bout havin to leave the mall...

[HiredGoon]

Montanya...not too bad of an encounter overall, at least they didn't disarm you and run your gun's serial number thru the database or throw you up against a wall or on the floor. Hopefully they came away more educated.

One thing I noted in your statement below...

Originally Posted by Montanya

Officer 2 (who during this entire encounter was 1000% more polite and courteous) said that even when he is off duty he always carries his concealed. I replied that perhaps that was what worked for him, and that is his right with a LTCF to carry however he wants, but that I was violating no laws.

Police do not need a LTCF when off duty, as they are one of the exceptions noted in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106 (exceptions to carrying a firearm without a Pennsylvania License to Carry).

(2) (b) Exceptions:
1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.