Carrier illegally detained and falsely charged in Pittsburgh

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

.........
i still like living in pittsburgh much better than i liked living (the first half of my life) in a small PA town...in spite of having to deal with the (un)democratic political machine that runs this place. so, rather than leave (which might actually be the most logical thing to do), i am going to keep trying to fix it.

I've been in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, and while I suppose that both have crime and corruption and their share of bad people, I much prefer Pittsburgh between the two.

Pittsburgh was much cleaner, to start with.

For another, while either walking or driving through downtown Pittsburgh, I never got the feeling that strangers would happily kill me for sport, if they thought they could get away with it. Simple courtesies like waiting for pedestrians to cross, or alternatively not jumping out in front of cars; and people smiled, even when nobody had just fallen down.

Philadelphia has maybe 8-10% or the entire state's population, but it has half of all car thefts, and I believe a majority of the homicides. Since most of those homicides did not involve exotic weaponry, I'm thinking that the problem is not the state preemption of local gun laws, it's the people who live there, a hard-core minority of thugs and their supporters.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by TonyF

If you did you'd know a little bit about the daily trials and tribulations they endure throughout the course of their day which are just a "wee bit" different from what you and I experience in our occupations.

Completely irrelevant.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by paul

Just how many Open Carriers do you think are out there? I'd be surprised if there were 500 active regularly in PA. So given a sample size of around 500 law abiding citizens, you think a half a dozen violations of their rights by sworn officers of the law is a good ratio? And I'm giving you a lot of rope here, there were more than a half a dozen people involved in just the one incident I can think of off the top of my head. The real truth is that just on this board there are closer to 40 or 50 people who have been hassled or worse by uneducated LEOs about OC. A ten percent oppression rate doesn't trouble you? Hell, fiddle with my assumptions if you don't like the numbers, but I don't think anythings getting blown out of proportion.

I'll fiddle.

I wrote "half a dozen encounters". That wasn't meant to imply "half a dozen people". IMO, we still have to factor in that allot of cops have not been educated regarding OC so of all the incidents that have occurred, you need to factor those out of the equation.

IOW, only the cops who did know the law and nevertheless hassled people are "count-able" as inexcusable.

I may be mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize in advance but IIRC, you yourself are a "late comer" to OC and were not aware that it wasn't prohibited until being educated via this forum. And if I am mistaken, there are plenty of forum members who were ignorant of OC until they learned otherwise reading these threads.

I know this debate has raged before but everyone expects every cop in the state to know that OC is legal. Someone show me a single text or document that cops are required to learn that covers OC? It isn't even in the statutes. It's existence is affirmed in "black and white" only through court case precedent. And yes, I'm willing to give cops who don't know OC is legal some slack so long as they comport themselves in a professional manner.

I'm not going to bust out a resume, but I guarantee you that I have little sympathy for anyone who would blame their behavior on dealing with bad guys when let's be honest, a significant portion of most officers time is taken up by traffic citations and nonviolent offenders. Even if that wasn't true, these guys are going home to their families every night, going home to a clean warm bed,

I'd put just one deployments worth of experience from any of those guys up for comparison against anyones entire career as a cop and not feel they were at a disadvantage.

Paul, I'm not going to reply to these statements except to say that stopping someone for a traffic violation (e.g. a busted tail light, etc.) is extremely dangerous whether you want to believe it or not. And in spite of your integrity and those of your comrades, there have been many, many egregious incidents over the course of our nations history where men in American uniforms have crossed the line.

I'll say it again, dealing with bad guys isn't any reason to stop acting like you're one of the good guys. Stress doesn't build character, it reveals it.

Well now you've hit pay dirt.

While I do have a great deal of sympathy for street cops, there are some who do not have the character and should not be wearing a badge and carrying a gun. I am on record stating so time and again on this board. As I stated in a previous reply, it all boils down to practicing personal ethics.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Completely irrelevant.

IMNSHO, you are so wrong as it ignores certain facts.

ETA: Blue text.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by TonyF

IMNSHO, you are so wrong as it ignores certain facts.

ETA: Blue text.

And IMNSHO you are the one making excuses for their behavior. The only certain facts that are relevant is that the officers are in the wrong; I don't care what kind of shitty day they may have had.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

And IMNSHO you are the one making excuses for their behavior. The only certain facts that are relevant is that the officers are in the wrong; I don't care what kind of shitty day they may have had.

I agree that the reason behind the bad behavior matters not from the aspect that they did do wrong.

BUT

I didn't see Tony making excuses. He was analyzing the cause of their indiscretions. Big difference.
In other words, I think he agrees but is offering commentary to help understand where the problem comes from.

Knowing the cause is the first step to a remedy.

That said. I strongly suggest we begin to steer this thread back on topic as it is wandering wider and wider off the intended path.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

And IMNSHO you are the one making excuses for their behavior. The only certain facts that are relevant is that the officers are in the wrong; I don't care what kind of shitty day they may have had.

Take some reading comprehension classes.

What I have been doing is TRYING TO EXPLAIN THE REASON(S) FOR SOME OF THE UNPROFESSIONAL BEHAVIOR AND ATTITUDES.

I'm not excusing them and I don't condone it.

GET IT?

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I agree that the reason behind the bad behavior matters not from the aspect that they did do wrong.

BUT

I didn't see Tony making excuses. He was analyzing the cause of their indiscretions. Big difference.
In other words, I think he agrees but is offering commentary to help understand where the problem comes from.

Knowing the cause is the first step to a remedy.

Thank you.

[Mtbkski]

OK, everyone sit down and drink a beer or two.

I was a cop. And as such, I would back my partner or fellow cop up no matter what. Were they wrong sometimes. YEP. But you backed them.

I was in the Marines. As as such, when my fellow Marine did something wrong, I backed him up. Were they wrong sometimes. YEP. But you backed them up.

I work in a State Penn now. You back your buddy up no matter what. Are they making back calls from time to time. YEP. But you back them up.

Why???? Cause if you don't. You suddenly find yourself all alone in a Job Enviorment that isn't healthy to be alone in. Is it wrong. YEP. But we do it.

The cop has no idea what it is like to be a soldier or corrections officer.
The soldier has no idea what it is like to be a cop or a corrections officer.
The corrections officer has no idea what it is like to be a cop or a soldier.
But yet, all the jobs involve looking out for each other. Backing each other up, even when wrong. It it wrong. YEP. But they all do it.

Now, drink another beer and lets all get together for a group hug.

[BigMikeM31]

Joe, you articulated what I've been working over in my head for a few months, now. I'd like to OC because it would definitely be more comfortable, but I dont know if I have the where-with-all (sp?) to deal with the hassles that come with it. I'm a college student and, therefore, have exactly ZERO money that would be available to deal with any type of legal matters that could arise from me doing something perfectly legal. Furthermore, I'm in college to become a teacher and any type of arrest (legal or otherwise) could seriously jeopardize my future career. I wish I was in a position to support you guys more by being active in the OC campaign, but I just can't justify the risks of not being able to properly defend myself and jeopardizing my career. That being said, I have come to know many police officers and I am doing my best to educate the ones unaware of OC's legality. I'm in a position that I can do it in a non-threatening manner since I know these guys and I want to help, so this is the best I can do. My hat is off to all of you that are willing and able to make such sacrifices and take such risks. You do those among our ranks unable to get involved for a variety of reasons proud!