Holster Q

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by ar15jules

Is it that rare that a ground fight may happen prior to using deadly force.

Pretty rare, with CCW. A good IWB should hold the gun through most scuffles. If you look at typical DGUs, what you describe is very unlikely, although possible.

My point isn't that this or that scenario is impossible. My point, really, is that you can always find some outlier scenario and elevate it to an all or nothing dealbreaker. But I can find rare scenarios where the opposite would be true -- where, for example, retention devices went awry or delayed the draw or made it somehow impossible (fat guy trying to draw weak handed = very hard to defeat the retention device w/ left hand).

Further, for actual grappling, a mere thumb break does not hold the gun as well as you might think. Either you OR the BG can access the gun about as easily. If, as you describe, you're tackled from behind, then the BG's right hand defeats the thumb break in much the same way your own right hand does. You'd need a higher level of retention, such as LE uses, and that does slow you down measurably.

You can always find an outlier to prove any requirement. My approach is, instead, to weigh how rare a risk is vs what I give up to deal with it. Retention on an IWB is gold plating IMO, and reduces my holster options considerably -- this for a risk that is extremely rare to encounter.

Again, IMO: if someone tackles you and you're grappling, that person could just as easily have clubbed or stabbed you first. It's a breakdown of your awareness that someone was able to grab you so easily. Carrying a folder helps in this scenario, and of course the BG could have a knife too, and the last thing you want to do is grapple with someone armed with a blade. In general, if you CCW, then you have to make an extra effort NOT to get involved in grappling incidents, because of the higher risk to you.

In the midst of all these breakdowns and problems, I see CCW gun retention as not high on the priority queue for that incident, which is rare to begin with.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by ar15jules

No, in scuffles, not in training classes.

You're saying you've personally seen several real guns go sliding in real-life attacks?

[ar15jules]

Yes, at least three
Jules

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by ar15jules

Yes, at least three
Jules

Are you in law enforcement?

What holster models were these? What kind of scenarios?

Real life data is always welcome...

[ar15jules]

Two of them were fobus, and I am not aware of the other make. All three happened in ground fights. Two of them at a bar, and one in a parking lot. Two revolvers and one small auto, if I remember correctly
Jules

[GRIZZLYBEAR]

I use Kramer, Sparks, or Null Horse hide holsters (for IWB carry of both revolvers and pistols) that are fitted to the firearm that is carried. There is no problem with retention during physical activities with these holsters as they tightly fitted to the firearm.

If carrying "tupperware" I use Side Armor with the screw tension type retention device. Plastic deserves a plastic holster.

If moving to a shoulder holster made by any of the above I will have a retention device of some sort.

grizz

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by ar15jules

Two of them were fobus,

Ok...keep in mind that, as far as quality is concerned, Fobus is a lower-tier holster maker

[ar15jules]

I am not debating that fact. I will always use a thumb break. By all means if you are comfortable wearing a holster that is not, then that is up to you. I spoke of my experiences, and have learned to draw using the thumb break. I choose to give up a millisecond in speed to have at least some retention. And thumb break retention in my opinion is about at the middle ground for retention and speed of draw. We all just need to know that we are responsible for our weapon and I assume that everyone who carries knows that. I would hate to have mine used on me, or anyone else for that matter.
Jules

[Frenchy]

I got a few of these "slides" a while back, seems I can carry just about any thing in them, they are great at the range and I can completely forget I have them on...



The one inder is for my 9mm Sigma, but all in all I can very easely carry it in the slide.