Terry Frisk+I.D.

[violinjim]

I ran across this while viewing PAPatriot's ordeal and would like some clarification from the Law-Pros on the board regarding the Terry-Frisk. My understanding from reading the thread (and there were a lot of pages to digest and it was late) was that you do not have to show your ID to an LEO (provided you are doing nothing wrong and not driving a motor vehicle). After talking to a Homeland Security Agent tonight I'm more confused than ever. He said I'd have to show my ID because giving false ID is a felony. When I replied that I'd state my name, not false, but show no ID, he didn't have an answer and reverted to his first statement. Then I told him about PA "sterile carry" and he became very uncomfortable. "What kind of point are you trying to make?" he retorted. I stated that "those who do not exercise their rights, lose them."
Conversation ended quickly.

Jim from Buffalo.

[policemedic]

Keep in mind that Feds enforce federal laws, and each agency enforces a small subset of the whole. While these sometimes parallel state laws, they are often quite different.

It is in fact a federal crime to lie to a special agent, say, of the FBI. Homeland Security is a large conglomeration of people and agencies. Customs and Border Protection folks may have greater latitude in certain areas due to national security concerns, and they fall under Homeland Security's umbrella. You'd have to specify which agency he was with, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any federal statute that would make it a felony to not provide paper ID when asked. You may lose certain rights, like reentry to the United States by failing to provide ID, but charged with a felony? Doubt it strongly.

[omnibus]

if a LEO asks me for ID....i have no problem showing. even if it is my right not to show it.... i can exercise my prerogative TO show it. i dont find that burdensome. an LEO is neither my enemy nor my friend. if showing some ID gets me on my way faster, i'm all for it.

in exercising our rights....sometimes there is a price to pay...even if the price is unjustified. i'd just as soon cooperate and be on my way. others insist on holding their ground. that's fine too.

but dont forget....i have a RIGHT to cooperate if i choose to.

[Mosinshooter762]

Originally Posted by omnibus

if a LEO asks me for ID....i have no problem showing. even if it is my right not to show it.... i can exercise my prerogative TO show it. i dont find that burdensome. an LEO is neither my enemy nor my friend. if showing some ID gets me on my way faster, i'm all for it.

in exercising our rights....sometimes there is a price to pay...even if the price is unjustified. i'd just as soon cooperate and be on my way. others insist on holding their ground. that's fine too.

but dont forget....i have a RIGHT to cooperate if i choose to.

Don't worry! "We the Sheeple" are in no danger of losing our 'right' (sounds like a disguised duty) to cooperate with police.

However, "We the People" are in danger of losing our right to go about undisturbed by police in normal course of our lives. This is what we should be fighting for. If you don't fight for it, you lose it.

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by violinjim

I ran across this while viewing PAPatriot's ordeal and would like some clarification from the Law-Pros on the board regarding the Terry-Frisk. My understanding from reading the thread (and there were a lot of pages to digest and it was late) was that you do not have to show your ID to an LEO (provided you are doing nothing wrong and not driving a motor vehicle). After talking to a Homeland Security Agent tonight I'm more confused than ever. He said I'd have to show my ID because giving false ID is a felony. When I replied that I'd state my name, not false, but show no ID, he didn't have an answer and reverted to his first statement. Then I told him about PA "sterile carry" and he became very uncomfortable. "What kind of point are you trying to make?" he retorted. I stated that "those who do not exercise their rights, lose them."
Conversation ended quickly.

Jim from Buffalo.

It's definitely a difficult relationship. The law abiding generally cooperate with and support the police.

But at what point do the police revert into "PAPERS PLEASE!" mode? Setting foot on American soil ("entry" into the United States -- even if illegal) gives even terrorists constitutional rights. That's one of the high costs of freedom.

I'm beginning to believe that only military veterans should be eligible to serve as LEOs. Upholding our freedom is part of the difficult job LEOs do. Some of them seem to forget that along the way (if they were ever even taught that).

The constitution is not a set of inconvenient technicalities to be gamed by the gov't and its agents.

To answer your question, without resonable, articulable suspicion, the police cannot require ID. If you are doing nothing suspicious, they can always ask you a question but you can ignore them if you feel like it.

Where it might get dicey for you is, for example, you closely match the description of someone who just committed an armed robbery and ran off in your direction. The police now have RAS to detain you for a brief investigation. You refuse to cooperate or answer any questions (as is your right). Now you can get stuck being detained for a reasonable period of time until they either get probable cause to arrest (let's say the person robbed mistakenly IDs you as the robber and now you're in for a lot of explaining to get out of that) or they figure out independently that you're not the BG. In either case not only have they done nothing wrong, they've actually done good police work. At bottom, however, is that in America, the gov't can't require you to carry ID if you're just walking around minding your own business. As a practical matter, that's maybe not the best idea.

[Statkowski]

When I replied that I'd state my name, not false, but show no ID, he didn't have an answer and reverted to his first statement. Then I told him about PA "sterile carry" and he became very uncomfortable. ... Conversation ended quickly.

Government authority figures get very uncomfortable when mere peasants discover that they actually do have rights, and then exercise them.

[TaePo]

Originally Posted by omnibus

if a LEO asks me for ID....i have no problem showing. even if it is my right not to show it.... i can exercise my prerogative TO show it. i dont find that burdensome. an LEO is neither my enemy nor my friend. if showing some ID gets me on my way faster, i'm all for it.

in exercising our rights....sometimes there is a price to pay...even if the price is unjustified. i'd just as soon cooperate and be on my way. others insist on holding their ground. that's fine too.

but dont forget....i have a RIGHT to cooperate if i choose to.

You have never been involved in an overseas or military post lockdown, have you? Basically, checkpoints get set-up everywhere. You must constantly confirm ID and paperwork (registration for vehicle or permission/reason to move about papers) sometimes almost every block. (ETA: Sometimes all movement is denied and you are detained at a checkpoint.)

The idea behind resisting the occasional request for ID when you are not doing anything criminal is to nip in the bud the requirement to comply lest it gets into showing ID everytime you enter/exit a town whilst you drive etc.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

Government authority figures get very uncomfortable when mere peasants discover that they actually do have rights, and then exercise them.

I found this out, first hand, in Dickson City on 5/9/08

[policemedic]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

But at what point do the police revert into "PAPERS PLEASE!" mode? Setting foot on American soil ("entry" into the United States -- even if illegal) gives even terrorists constitutional rights. That's one of the high costs of freedom.

Actually, making entry into the United States is when you have the least Constitutional protection against things like warrantless searches, for example.

[Steve in PA]

A police cannot merely walk up to you on the street and demand ID. Okay, he can "demand" it, but unless he believes criminal activity is afoot, you are under no obligation to talk to him.

An officer can only do a Terry Frisk after he has reason to believe you may be armed and a danger to him. Of course an officer might ask, and you might say yes.