Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default conceled carry on private property

    A few very important questions for you guys.

    Is it legal to concealed carry on your own private property but outside your home?

    and if yes, Is it legal to CC on someone else's private property with the owners permission?

    And what all could be categorized as a fixed place of business? I know a construction site is NOT. But would say a campground, or trailer park, or even an amusement park still count event though your business goes beyond your main buildings walls?


    I am familiar with the PA gun rights brochure available on this site, and it says under "facts about concealed carry" that you can CC on private property, but i cannot find supporting facts of this anywhere else. Everywhere i look it always ends at "place of abode or fixed place of business"

    Any links anyone has that lists private property under 18 pacs ss6106 would be greatly appreciated.

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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Quote Originally Posted by jud4420 View Post
    .... Everywhere i look it always ends at "place of abode or fixed place of business".....
    This only applies if you do NOT have a LTCF. If you have a LTCF you can carry everywhere except the places listed, ie; schools, govt. buildings, court house, etc.
    Last edited by Gary737; May 23rd, 2008 at 07:48 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    I do not have an LTCF. I open carry, however i found myself in a situation, and am therefore looking for some documented clarification, if anyone can help.

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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    If you are open carrying (and on foot) you can go to any and all the same places you would go if you were concealing. Obviously, if you are not concealed, a business owner is more likely to notice the firearm, and that may prompt a request to either cover or leave. You must comply with a property owner's wishes, or you are committing 'trespass'.

    If you wish to discuss more detailed specifics of your situation, but do not wish to post them publicly, please feel free to send me a PM.
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Gnbrotz Sent you a PM

  6. #6
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Let me preface my answers by first stating that I am not an attorney.

    Quote Originally Posted by jud4420 View Post
    Is it legal to concealed carry on your own private property but outside your home?

    and if yes, Is it legal to CC on someone else's private property with the owners permission?

    And what all could be categorized as a fixed place of business? I know a construction site is NOT. But would say a campground, or trailer park, or even an amusement park still count event though your business goes beyond your main buildings walls?
    Unfortunately, there is no list of what qualifies as a "fixed place of business" written into the law. A prosecutor would probably argue that this applies only to a 'structure', not the surrounding property. This would mean that if you had an orchard with a fruit stand, you would be ok while inside the fruit stand, but not ok to take a stroll out through the orchard itself. I'm unfamiliar with any case law speaking to this point, but perhaps someone else will come along and chime in.

    Also, even assuming the above limitation, you could be covered under a specifically listed exemption:
    (6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
    As the owner or employee of the orchard (a business firm), your duties require you to protect all of the fruit hanging on the trees (valuables and other property) from those who would help themselves to your wares. Because of this duty, you are exempt from licensing and would be able to CC throughout the property in order to fulfill this responsibility.
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Quote Originally Posted by jud4420 View Post
    A few very important questions for you guys.

    Is it legal to concealed carry on your own private property but outside your home?
    good question. i would say no.

    as you noted, the law speaks of "in one's place of abode". so, what does that mean...just your house--or your house and yard--or what?

    i can't find a legal definition...and i can't find any case law in PA. however, in the State of Washingon v. James Andrew Smith, a Washington court found that your yard is *not* part of your place of abode.

    from: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

    The Legislature has not defined the phrase 'place of abode' used in
    RCW 9.41.270(3)(a).4 In the absence of a statutory definition, words are
    given their ordinary and usual meaning.5 The ordinary meaning of abode is:
    one's home, place of dwelling, residence, and/or domicile.6
    The exception does not include Smith's backyard because it is limited to 'a
    person while in his or her place of abode{.}' The word 'in' clearly
    implies inside, not one's backyard. If the Legislature wanted to enact a
    broader exception, it could have used 'at' rather than 'in.'
    Under Smith's interpretation of the place of abode exception, a person
    could lawfully display a weapon in an intimidating manner as long as he or
    she remained on the property upon which his or her dwelling is located.
    This interpretation contradicts the purpose of RCW 9.41.270(1), which is to
    promote public safety by protecting people against those who carry weapons
    in a threatening manner. The place of abode exception comports with this
    purpose because one has a legitimate privacy right in his or her home, and
    the exception does not endanger the public by including behavior that
    occurs in an area exposed to the public. As the State notes, although a
    home's curtilage enjoys heightened protection under the Fourth Amendment,
    'a person does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in areas of the
    curtilage impliedly open to the public.'7
    A backyard does not satisfy the place of abode exception under
    RCW 9.41.270.8 Accordingly, we affirm Smith's conviction.
    of course, this is not at all binding in PA, but does provide one example of how one court defined place of abode. it is not unreasonable to think PA courts might rule the same way.

    and, also it is interesting in this case that the court did not allow curtilage to be considered part of the place of abode.

    more on curtilage just for the curious...

    Curtilage is the immediate, enclosed area surrounding a house or dwelling. The U.S. Supreme Court noted in United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294 (1987), that curtilage is the area immediately surrounding a residence that "harbors the `intimate activity associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life.'' Curtilage, like a house, is protected under the fourth amendment from "unreasonable searches and seizures.''

    Determining the boundaries of curtilage is imprecise and subject to controversy. Four of the factors used to dtermine whether to classify the area as curtilage include:

    1) The distance from the home to the place claimed to be curtilage (the closer the home is, the more likely to be curtilage);

    2) Whether the area claimed to be curtilage is included within an enclosure surrounding the home;

    3) The nature of use to which the area is put (if it is the site of domestic activities, it is more likely to be a part of the curtilage); and

    4) The steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by (shielding from public view will favor finding the portion is curtilage).
    (above from: http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/curtilage/)

    and if yes, Is it legal to CC on someone else's private property with the owners permission?
    i don't think so. i don't see how that would fit into any of the exceptions listed in the PA UFA...even in another person's house.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    yea im definatly not finding anything about it in the firearms act. Its looking like it is not legal to CC W/o LTCF even on private property.

    Its something i think alot of people assume, Kinda its legal if you dont get caught kinda thing.

    Does anyone know who wrote the "Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights ~Handy flyer to carry with you." Sticky post?

    As i said in my first post, he listed private property of which you have permission to CC as legal without a license. Until i find this guy and check his fact, Im gonna stick with not legal.

    Unless someone else knows where this text is supported?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Is this possibly in the laws about private property and privacy?

    Hmmmmm?

    (goes to do more research)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: conceled carry on private property

    Another question would be, if you are ccing on private property and the property owner did not report or complain about it, would an LEO have legal standing to come onto that private property to check you out? I don't think so!

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