LEO training & qualification

[BimmerJon]

Originally Posted by chrisjames_71

Its not his/her job to know DE's laws pertaining to LTCF. Should be calling DSP for that answer.

It was just one of several questions that I asked and they failed on.

Point is, if you dont know the answer...say so, dont give out wrong information to people.

[policemedic]

Originally Posted by BimmerJon

I called the PA State Trooper Barracks on several occasions and asked similar questions such as: "Is my LTCF valid in DE" answer "Sure, not problem"

Were you speaking to a trooper or to a PCO (dispatcher)?

If you are sure it was a trooper and they were handing out incorrect information, that's pretty sad.

Of course, if it was a PCO they should have known not to answer any requests like that and kick it to a trooper.

[policemedic]

Originally Posted by chrisjames_71

We get 40 hours (16 was active shooter) and its still not enough for us. I've read the MD crimes/traffic book front to back on many numerous slow days.

If you count everything, the state mandates 32 hours (2 days classroom, 1 day CPR/FA, 1 day firearms). Not enough. We do active shooter training annually but it's not a requirement to maintain our commissions.

[BimmerJon]

Originally Posted by policemedic

Were you speaking to a trooper or to a PCO (dispatcher)?

If you are sure it was a trooper and they were handing out incorrect information, that's pretty sad.

Of course, if it was a PCO they should have known not to answer any requests like that and kick it to a trooper.

I know this is back from 2008... but I havent logged on since then!

SITE upgrades are AWESOME!!!

It was a trooper, I verified before asking questions.

[Statkowski]

Previously stated:

My point would be if an officer makes a stop and he's unsure of the law maybe he should carry $.25 to call the DA or ADA to find out if he's on solid ground or ice breaking up under him I'm sure the CLEO and the Solicitor for the town would also have access to the law sites on line.

Didn't the town clowns in Dickson City call their ADA? We all know where that went, or is currently going.

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

No problemo but you can't enforce laws that don't exist. Criminal laws are proscriptive. The text tells you what people can't do. If you want to arrest someone, somewhere down the road you had better be able to point to a law that says whatever it is is illegal. If you can't, you won't have to give an inch the judge will take care of what you'll be giving, welcome to the defendant's side of the courtroom. The basic premise is that the public can't be made to guess what is and isn't illegal and will land them in a cell. If you have to guess and wonder, how do you think John Q. is supposed to deal with his everyday life? Walk around wondering if his every move might at any moment be declared illegal by the police?

The crimes code is pretty short and very easy to understand.

All Hawkins did was remind the police and gov't that it's not illegal to openly carry a gun. There is no law against it. That case should really drive home the point that no matter what anyone might think, if the legislature didn't make something illegal, it's not. If it's not illegal to do it, it can't make people doing it suspicious either. These should not be remarkable conclusions requiring the Pa Supreme Court to tell us, but it did. Why, well people just refuse to believe that openly carrying a gun is, as a matter of law, not suspicious; it has to be, right? No, it's not. There's no law against it.

Seriously, if you think you need to see something written down saying people are allowed to do something before you'll let them do it, for your own good you better have a talk with your city solicitor or department counsel.

Oh and before I forget, I'm not arguing with you to criticize your point of view. I'm trying to get a handle on the various sides of the issue before I decide where I want to come down on it. So, I appreciate your point of vew.

Ok so a cop sees a guy walking down a street and carrying a wooden axe handle with nails sticking out of it. The cop doesn't know if that's a POW or not. Two different reactions here.

1) So bearing on the side of caution, the cop calls for backup, disarms him at gun point, cuffs him, and takes him into custody for investigation. Come to find out it was just a realistic movie prop he bought for a Halloween costume.

2) Because he's not sure of the law, the cop doesn't take any action and he ends up critically hurting someone later.

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by reverserboy

OK where do I start??

First.....comparing a LEO to a lawyer is not valid. Cops don't do wills,divorce,real estate,incorporation,family law,med malpractice of any of the other stuff lawyers do. They just need to know the crimes code & motor vehicle laws.

My response is to what I bolded. These are just the basic topics mandated by MPOETC.
There are many more specialized, updates and advanced classes officers take during their career.

I. INTRODUCTION TO THE ACADEMY
a. Academy Mission
b. Academy Objectives
c. Rules and Regulations
d. Learning Skills
e. Role & Function of MPOETC
II. INTRODUCTION TO LAW ENFORCEMENT IN PA
a. History and Principles
b. Police, Public and C.O.P.
c. Ethics and Moral Issues
d. PA Criminal Justice System
III. PHYSICAL & EMOTIONAL READINESS
a. Physical Fitness
b. Emotional Health/Stress Mgmt.
c. Academy Physical Requirements
IV. LAWS AND PROCEDURES
a. Authority and Jurisdiction
b. Constitutional Law
c. Criminal Law
d. Criminal Procedure/Laws of Arrest
e. Search and Seizure
f. Admissions and Confessions
g. Civil Laws
h. Liquor Laws
i. Controlled Substances
j. Cell Phone Laws
k. Lethal Weapons Law
l. Electronic Surveillance Act
m. Environmental Crimes
V. DEFENSIVE TACTICS
a. Use of Force in Law Enforcement
b. Tactical self-defense
VI. MOTOR VEHICLE LAW ENFORCEMENT
a. Vehicle Code & Enforcement
b. DUI Enforcement & Prosecution
VII. MOTOR VEHICLE COLLISION INVESTIGATION
a. Collision Investigation
b. Hazardous Materials
VIII. PATROL PROCEDURES AND OPERATIONS
a. Role of Patrol in Policing the Community
b. Patrol Procedures
c. Patrol activities & incidents
d. Monitoring & Controlling Vehicular & Pedestrian traffic
e. Vehicle Stop Techniques
f. Roadblocks & Barricades
g. Crimes in Progress
h. Crowd control & Civil disorder
i. Crime Prevention/Fear Reduction
j. Special Problems-Gangs and Terrorism
IX. PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
a. Officer as First Responder
b. Securing the Crime Scene
c. Interview and Interrogation
d. Identifying, Collecting Evidence
e. Identification of Suspects
f. Crimes against People
g. Crimes against Property
h. Injury and Death Cases
i. Sex Crimes
j. Controlled Substances
k. Informants & Intelligence
l. Surveillance
m. Civil Complaints & Service
n. Case Preparation
o. Radio Procedures
X. HUMAN RELATIONS
a. Perceptions of Human Behavior
b. Communication
c. Cultural Diversity
d. Ethnic Intimidation/Bias Crimes
XI. CRISIS MANAGEMENT
a. Behavior Mgmt. /Crisis Intervention
b. Dispute intervention/conflict mgmt.
c. Recognizing Special Needs
d. Suicide, barricaded persons, hostage situations
XII. FAMILIES IN CRISIS
a. Juvenile Law & Justice
b. Handling juveniles & their problems
c. Domestic violence & police response
d. Victim Assistance Laws
XIII. BASIC FIREARMS
a. Basic Firearms Course
XIV. OPERATION OF PATROL VEHICLES
a. Emergency Vehicle Operations
XV. REPORT WRITING
a. Report writing & notetaking
XVI. CASE PRESENTATION
a. Courtroom Testimony & Demeanor
b. Rules of Evidence
XVII. FIRST AID & CPR
a. Emergency Response Training
XVIII. HANDLING ARRESTED PERSONS
a. Mechanics of Arrest, Restraint and Control
b. Handcuffing
c. Transporting Prisoners
d. Custody of the Mentally Ill
e. Booking and Lockup
f. Booking & Lockup/Juveniles
g. Special Problems

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by DaveM55

Ok so a cop sees a guy walking down a street and carrying a wooden axe handle with nails sticking out of it. The cop doesn't know if that's a POW or not. Two different reactions here.

1) So bearing on the side of caution, the cop calls for backup, disarms him at gun point, cuffs him, and takes him into custody for investigation. Come to find out it was just a realistic movie prop he bought for a Halloween costume.

2) Because he's not sure of the law, the cop doesn't take any action and he ends up critically hurting someone later.

or

3) erring on the side he is supposed to err on in america...namely that of liberty and not violating people's rights...he follows/watches the guy for awhile and sees what happens. maybe even tries to initiate a conversation out of nailed wooden axe handle range.

living in a free country does involve some risk. because other people in the country are also free, they are able to do bad things to you. thus, you have to take it upon yourself to be able to defend yourself--the state may not be there to protect you. that is the price you pay for not having to worry about the police dragging you away for no reason. personally, i'll gladly pay that price.

personally, i will never place being protected by the government above ensuring the government does not interfere with personal rights and liberty. i will never condone a government agent detaining someone just because he "isn't sure". and, as far as i can tell, that is what america is supposed to be all about--or at least it thought it was.

different philosophies, i guess...

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by DaveM55

Ok so a cop sees a guy walking down a street and carrying a wooden axe handle with nails sticking out of it. The cop doesn't know if that's a POW or not. Two different reactions here.

1) So bearing on the side of caution, the cop calls for backup, disarms him at gun point, cuffs him, and takes him into custody for investigation. Come to find out it was just a realistic movie prop he bought for a Halloween costume.

2) Because he's not sure of the law, the cop doesn't take any action and he ends up critically hurting someone later.

I guess choice 3, observing behavior to determine if there is RAS to stop isn't on the menu? BTW, a common handgun carried openly in a holster is not a POW, so I don't see your point.

Anyway, if the handle with nails is a POW (I don't know nor really care to spend the time to find out -- axe handle with nails doesn't seem to come up too often ), then by definition possession of it is a crime so why would there be a problem with a stop? If the handle with nails is not a POW and the officer wants to give the citizen the "treatment" without RAS to make a lawful stop, the officer may write the state assembly, same as anyone else, get the law changed, and then go Rambo on the guy to his heart's content.

It really isn't rocket science.