Be Ready for School Shooters and School Takeovers

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Dredly

......
The only solution to stop active shooters is arm the people that are already there. Allow teachers to carry weapons in all grades, make them qualify but encourage them to carry weapons. Make the school rent a cops actually matter and make them carry guns that they are qualified to shoot. A flashlight isn't going to help. Have full time SWAT trained officers at schools...
.....

It's obvious that even the speediest cops can't get to the school faster than people who are already there.

This is a corollary to the fact that nobody can outdraw someone who's already got his gun out and pointed at you.

I'd be fascinated to see the results of any war games conducted with motivated "terrorists" against a real school and a real emergency plan. My bet would be that the death toll would be in the hundreds if guns alone were used, and near 100% if explosives or toxic gas were used, and it would all be over by the time the first cop arrived.

I'm not saying that every member of the NEA should have a pistol on his or her hip, but what I AM suggesting is that the defensive situation should be unknown to the attackers. Maybe this school will be totally defenseless, but maybe this school will have 20 trained teachers and custodians and bus drivers with some training and immediate access to AR-15's.

Sort of like why non-gun-owning American homes don't get broken into while the owners are home; because MAYBE the owner is armed. Whether it's the local Al Qaida cell or the troubled 16-year old loner, nobody wants to get killed by bystanders before he achieves his goal; nobody wants to go out in a blaze of embarrassment.

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

snip
What most parents refuse to recognize and internalize is that it takes several minutes for the team to arrive, snip.

30 minutes at the very best until a team is assembled, briefed, and ready to engage.

I think that time would be an excellent response time for a SWAT team.

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

snip
I can't imagine any scenario where 3 armed men would be unable to enter any school and kill hundreds of children; who's going to stop them? snip

I know of more than a few teachers who are beginning to adopt the philosophy that folks like convenience store workers and pizza delivery guys (among others) have. Namely, it's better to be fired than defenseless and dead.

It's a harder choice for teachers to make. They have good jobs, with good pay and good benefits. But when a teenager with a grudge and an urge for attention can gun down dozens, and when the scenario keeps being repeated against defenseless targets with predictable results, a realistic risk/benefit assessment must be made by those capable of facing reality.

[Dredly]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

30 minutes at the very best until a team is assembled, briefed, and ready to engage.

I think that time would be an excellent response time for a SWAT team.

I would think 30 minutes would be an excellent time for SWAT to even show up at most of our schools... How many area's have SWAT teams on stand by? I'm in the Pleasant Valley school district so I'll use our schools as an example.

If a call was made to the PSP it would take at least 15 minutes for officers to leave their barracks and get to the main school area. They would have to come all the way across 209 from Leighton, All the way down 115 from Blakeslee (sp?) or up from below wind gap. The response time may be a little better if they are somewhere local responding to other calls (ie: accidents)

The VT Shootings lasted less then 11 minutes from first shot to suicide and 30+ people were dead.

The Columbine shooting lasted approx 50 minutes however all the killing occurred in less then 23 minutes (11:19 - 11:42). The rest was the standoff

The Northern Ill shooting lasted less then 5 minutes, 6 dead, 18 injured.

What does all this mean? Police cannot respond to an incident fast enough to make a difference unless they are already there on site. May police get there soon enough to prevent additional killing? maybe, but by then its already going to be to late.

[reels18]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

It's obvious that even the speediest cops can't get to the school faster than people who are already there.

This is a corollary to the fact that nobody can outdraw someone who's already got his gun out and pointed at you.

I'd be fascinated to see the results of any war games conducted with motivated "terrorists" against a real school and a real emergency plan. My bet would be that the death toll would be in the hundreds if guns alone were used, and near 100% if explosives or toxic gas were used, and it would all be over by the time the first cop arrived.

I'm not saying that every member of the NEA should have a pistol on his or her hip, but what I AM suggesting is that the defensive situation should be unknown to the attackers. Maybe this school will be totally defenseless, but maybe this school will have 20 trained teachers and custodians and bus drivers with some training and immediate access to AR-15's.

Sort of like why non-gun-owning American homes don't get broken into while the owners are home; because MAYBE the owner is armed. Whether it's the local Al Qaida cell or the troubled 16-year old loner, nobody wants to get killed by bystanders before he achieves his goal; nobody wants to go out in a blaze of embarrassment.

The NEA would never allow their members to carry at work and would never admit their members should carry away from work. They are too in lock step with the gun grabbing agenda to consider any change in their idiotic policies.

Personally, I believe we could lose thousands of students and that attitude would not change. They would scream and whine about the guns owned by legal gun owners and call for more restrictions.

Commons sense has not prevailed in the past or present. Why expect it in the future?

An excellent deterrent to stopping the home grown "lone gunners" is to deny them their 15 minutes of fame. If they know they will not be the "talk of the town" for days on end, they will have lost their motivation.

[pghplr]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Has anyone ever tested those absurd "preparedness drills" where they teach the kids how to hide under their desks when the terrorists strike (oh, nobody would ever think to look for them THERE)? It would be cheap and easy, send in a couple guys with paintball guns, implement the contingency response plans, and see how many kids get inked before the police even show up and start setting the perimeter and ordering donuts and making sure they know who to blame for the deaths.

"Preparedness drills", my kids must have missed that day. I'm sure the drill consists of someone checking to make sure the doors are locked while the teachers don't allow the students to go to the bathroom during that 10 minutes.
My kids would love to be in some kind of full blown, live fire(paintball) exercise. I'm sure we could get 300 kids to spend a weekend in some Pa school, letting the Swat teams practice. And it would be a wake up call to those who think their kids are safe with this Zero Policy crap.
Let 30 teachers practice thier policy of controlling 300 students from 1 or 2 armed(paintball) jagoffs while the police practice thier procedures.

[nlcrsn]

Go ask your school board at the next board meeting! Ask what their plans include, if any? Invite alot of other parents and get answers. or just sit back and wait for someone else to take care of it.

[Kpdpipes]

Originally Posted by Dredly

I would think 30 minutes would be an excellent time for SWAT to even show up at most of our schools... How many area's have SWAT teams on stand by? I'm in the Pleasant Valley school district so I'll use our schools as an example.

If a call was made to the PSP it would take at least 15 minutes for officers to leave their barracks and get to the main school area. They would have to come all the way across 209 from Leighton, All the way down 115 from Blakeslee (sp?) or up from below wind gap. The response time may be a little better if they are somewhere local responding to other calls (ie: accidents)

The VT Shootings lasted less then 11 minutes from first shot to suicide and 30+ people were dead.

The Columbine shooting lasted approx 50 minutes however all the killing occurred in less then 23 minutes (11:19 - 11:42). The rest was the standoff

The Northern Ill shooting lasted less then 5 minutes, 6 dead, 18 injured.

What does all this mean? Police cannot respond to an incident fast enough to make a difference unless they are already there on site. May police get there soon enough to prevent additional killing? maybe, but by then its already going to be to late.

Hell of a First post on a new board..but here goes.
#1 there wouldnt BE a "Swat" team for an Active Shooter. Columbine proved that that approach was outmoded.
#2 Now the idea is that the FIRST officers on the scene go in and eeal with the shooters as quickly as possible. No Perimeter, no wait for backup, as soon as you get a couple of people you GO. MOST states have Mandated this approach, and MOST if not all Municipal/County agencies in both Pa and NJ have trained and practiced this to one extent or another. Some properly, some Improperly.

The problems that arise are "Normal" responses have to be ignored..such as Wounded Kids.. you CANNOT stop to render aid you have to move on and go after the Shooter(s), the other one, is in MOST of these school shootings..the shooter is another Student..probably dressed like and the same age group as everyone else. Target Recognition can be difficult especially if the BG is smart.

For those who brought up Beslan. If that happens here it will be a cluster hump--pure and simple No matter WHAT response local PDs have it's going to be the "Wrong" one. Treat it like a "Normal" Active Shooter Incident, and you're facing a heavily armed trained group who are just going to start mowing down kids until they have cops to shoot at. Result, WHOLE lot of dead kids and dead cops. Treat it Like a "Normal" hostage Incident, you will have the BG's kill anyone who they deem poses a threat, and drag it out to get the most media coverage possible...whereupon they will start killing the kids, and force dynamic entry...resulting in a whole lot of dead kids and dead cops.

And, just as an academic Exercise, YOU are the first guy through the door, you come up on one of the bad guys, he is holding a child as a shield, and actively shooting other children as they run away. The ONLY way you have to take him out, and save lives, is to shoot the child he's using as a shield. What do you do???


For the record this is the EXACT dilemma that the Soldiers from the Alpha and Vympl teams faced when they entered Beslan #3 School on Sept 3, 2004. For a VERY Good breakdown of exactly what happened, from the mouths of Men who were there, anyone interested should read John Guiduk's book "Terror at Beslan". Also try NOT to take anything on the Wiki entry with too much seriousness, as there are some glaring discrepancies, such as there were NO tanks, Thermobaric weapons or other Heavies used when they went into the School. The terrorists had wired expedient Claymore-style IED's onto the Basketball Backboards in the Gym where most of the Hostages were Kept. One of these fell off of the backboard and detonated, causing other IEDs to detonate, catching everyone, including the Bg's by surprise.

Note: in NONE of that training is there a section to "Send out for Fing Donuts"

[Carnes]

Originally Posted by Kpdpipes

Hell of a First post on a new board..but here goes.
#1 there wouldnt BE a "Swat" team for an Active Shooter. Columbine proved that that approach was outmoded.
#2 Now the idea is that the FIRST officers on the scene go in and eeal with the shooters as quickly as possible. No Perimeter, no wait for backup...

...snip...

Welcome to the PAFOA.

Nice overview of how things could be handled. Unfortunately, I think that too many people in the LE community turn all problems into nails, because the only tool they have is a hammer. What I am saying is that I don't agree with the mentality that every scenario has to be dealt with only in terms of some kind of police response.

When a police officer who may or may not have mediocre training is going into an environment with hundreds of kids and potentially hundreds of shoot/no-shoot decisions that is some hairy shit, to say the least.

Why do people consider the only possible way to solve the problem is through the police?

Allow any teacher that has a LTCF to carry, and mandate that maybe something like 33% of all school staff (teachers, janitors, security, lunch-lady, admin) is required to be armed and trained specifically in response measures to school shootings/hostage situations.

No offense to any of our LEOs, but I would feel more comfortable knowing that there were armed staff members who work in the school, know the layout and know the students who had the training and additional responsibility to respond to a threat situation, rather than to have a couple police officers who may have never even been in the school and may never have been in a high-stress shoot/no-shoot situation come into that kind of environment.

And I don't want to hear, "Yeah, sounds good, but that will never happen." Because every time someone says something like that God creates another liberal kook to punish us for not standing stronger.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Carnes

Allow any teacher that has a LTCF to carry, and mandate that maybe something like 33% of all school staff (teachers, janitors, security, lunch-lady, admin) is required to be armed and trained specifically in response measures to school shootings/hostage situations.

I agree that anyone who is meets the legal requirements should be permitted to be armed if they wish, but I don't like the idea of mandating it for a specific number of people. The bottom line is the school staff are NOT (and should not be) responsible to deal with these types of situations. However, this should not preclude them from being armed and applying deadly force (as permitted by law) if a situation warrants it, and they elect to intervene.