Potential scenario the other night

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by jh664322

...
So assuming I had a pistol, and no other non-lethal deterrents, I need to fight it fist to fist? Please correct if I misinterpreted your words.
.

The problem with these questions is that they are impossible to answer.

You understand correctly, if you are in legitimate fear of your life or grave bodily injury...

Can someone meet this threat level with just their bare hands - absolutely.
DO they meet it in your scenario?

The answer will ONLY come from a judge & jury. Never resort to lethal force unless presented with same or reasonable assurance that it will escalate to that.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

The problem with these questions is that they are impossible to answer.

You understand correctly, if you are in legitimate fear of your life or grave bodily injury...

Can someone meet this threat level with just their bare hands - absolutely.
DO they meet it in your scenario?

The answer will ONLY come from a judge & jury. Never resort to lethal force unless presented with same or reasonable assurance that it will escalate to that.

Thank you. And yes, they are theoretical questions which can only offer insight and not an answer.

I was reading the walmart thread....I thought the hiding behind something for tact was a good idea.

In that thread, and in this scenario, why stop at all to engage the threat? I think I would have backed away, in a defensive posture (as to indicate my preparedness for defense) and keep moving back as long as I could.

The problem with that is, how long do I do this retreating. What if commands of stop, or do not come any closer are not adhered to?

And simply put, would running at someone constitute a risk of serious bodily harm? I mean this last question more in a what would you do sense.

[NineseveN]

The law, to my knowledge, does not require me to be beaten before I can defend myself. Sure, the difference between the law as you read it and how it works out in court can be two very different things, but that's beside the point. One must approach these so-called "grey areas" knowing full well that no matter what you do, you're probably going to have charges brought against you and you're going to have to fight them in court. You need to make a decision on whether or not what you are about to do is worth sitting in jail and exhausting your finances over. If you truly believe that you are about to suffer imminent and grave bodily harm, then who am I to question that (well unless I'm on the jury anyway)?

If you think getting into a grapple with a guy while you're wearing a gun is a better idea than to draw, you're a much more confident man than I. I hope you have active retention in your carry rig, there's a reason why cops have it, and grappling with suspects is precisely it. Grappling without active retention is just asking to end up looking down the barrel of your own gun.

Drawing your gun != firing your gun. You can, to my knowledge (IANAL), use the threat of deadly force even in situations where actually employing deadly force is not yet justified. Start with verbal commands (while your hand is at the ready but you haven't drawn) like "Stop, I'm armed. Do not come any closer". If the person keeps coming, and you have time, command him to stop again. At this point, if the guy is still advancing, one has to figure that if the guy is willing to risk being shot in order to do what he's panning on doing, you can bet that it's not going to be pleasant and it won't be in your favor. At that point, I would most definitely draw my gun (while retreating to get behind cover, starting with when I issued the first verbal command) and once again, order the person to stop if there's time and opportunity.

Would I be arrested for those actions, even if I did not ultimately shoot? Quite possibly, but I'll take my chances in court under the scenario that someone has been told to stop twice and has been informed or shown that I was armed. All I know is that getting into a grappling match with someone while you're armed is not a smart thing to do. OC/Mace/Pepper Spray works most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't; if you have it on you, by all means, use that first if you're justified.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by jh664322

The problem with that is, how long do I do this retreating.

all the way to a police station.

seriously, though, there is no concept in the PA use-of-force laws saying "OK, you've retreated far enough, you don't need to retreat any more."

What if commands of stop, or do not come any closer are not adhered to?

then legally you need to retreat...as long as you can do so "with complete safety" and you are not in your home.

And simply put, would running at someone constitute a risk of serious bodily harm?

in general, i don't think so...but it depends on the totality of the circumstances of the situation. if you can convince a jury that you were *reasonably* in fear for your life just because someone was running at you, then they might find you not guilty. even by then, though, it will have cost you a lot of money and royally screwed up your life.

I mean this last question more in a what would you do sense.

it really is hard to say without actually being in the situation...you just cannot possibly get the "vibe" of the situation or completely understand the totality of the circumstances without being there.

but, in general, if someone is coming at you and won't stop, i think it is a good idea to try to put something between the two of you...like your car. keep an eye on his hands. if he reaches for something, then it takes it to a new level, imho. even, then, though, he could be reaching for his wallet or his cell phone or whatever.

of course, if you are truly in fear for your life, you need to do what you need to do. however, it would behoove you to only be in fear for your life when it is reasonable to be in fear for your life. i think most people (quite possibly including everyone on your jury) would not say it is reasonable to be in fear for your life from an unarmed man approaching you--even if he is ignoring your commands to not approach.

just my 2 cents.

[headcase]

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to belittle you. It's just that you, and others who ask these types of questions, usually already know the answer, or should. It should be obvious that if the aggressor is unarmed, you may only meet his aggression with like force. You can certainly use non lethal methods of meeting his aggression, but shooting someone for punching you in the face, or threatening to "beat your ass" will keep you alive long enough to maybe get killed in prison. How many "drunk student beats guy to death in wawa parking lot" stories have you read or heard of? I really have a difficult time understanding why so many people seem to need, or want, to be told where the line for using deadly force is. Maybe it comes from the video game generation? Maybe it is from most of us being so coddled that we instantly translate a feeling of fear into a feeling of fear for our lives? Maybe it's just me. I have had the unfortunate experience of actually being in danger of losing my life more than once. It is a far cry from being afraid of getting your ass beat. It is a far cry from being afraid you will be embarrassed in front of a date. When you feel that your life is actually within a few heartbeats of being over, you will know the difference. That is where you need to be mentally, according to the law, if you are going to fire your weapon in self defense. Shooting someone, besides the feeling you will have to live with, means you will be required to explain your actions to a jury. I doubt,"Well he was drunk and bigger than me, and said he was going to beat my ass", is going to be considered justifiable homicide. If the guy has a knife, shoot him. If he has a gun, shoot him. If he has can of pork and beans he says he is going to beat your skull in with, shoot him. If he threatens to beat you to a pulp and then take your girlfriend in the alley and show her what a real man can do, shoot him. All of this assumes you can not run away and he is now advancing on you intent on harming you. But barring that kind of thing, even pulling your weapon is likely to get you jailed.

ETA: Like NineseveN said, if you are worried about the guy taking your weapon, defend yourself. Saying ,"HALT, I'M ARMED", needs to be done. What I was dealing with is specifically the point you can shoot someone. The OP makes it sound like the guy sees the threat of getting into a fight and opens fire. I am hoping to get people to think before they feel the necessity to go right to the gun, is all.

[stevieb92]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Damn...

Ditto... Great post.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by headcase

I have seen a trend here lately of people asking when is it ok to shoot someone.

And it always seems to happen at Walmart! Doesn't any one ever shop at Sears any more? WTF!

Anyways, I hate these "Scenarios" where people ask us desktop quarterbacks for advice, we are NOT lawyers!

If I where in a parking, If Ben Johnson (who could run like a cheetah) was in a parking, If Laila Ali was in a parking... it all changes

I can't fight or run to save my life, it takes me about 30 minutes to walk the quarter mile... Yes I would have to rest a few times,

Ben Johnson (Olympian runner) could probably outrun most people he encounters. It would be silly for him to claim he could not get away unless he was in a body cast...

Laila Ali could whoop the crap out of many men... She would look silly saying she feared for her life...
So to ask a general question like this and expect a reasonable answer is really off the wall.

For me, If some one looks threatening, I go condition Orange. If I look at them and they don't stop, If I tell them they are too close for my comfort and they don't back off, If I say Leave me alone, then they already crossed the line.
One blow to me could be my life, but its a medical condition that is not visible to the average person. When people meet me, they don't see that I have a condition that would not allow me to get punched. This same condition does not allow me to run for any long distances.

This would only be found out in court. Then I would depend on 12 people to see how I was defenseless.

The best way to see if YOU have reason to believe you could be in fear of your life under certain conditions is like others have said. Take courses, ask a lawyer.

For my self, I don't go to places where I would normally expect to have to use my Firearm, When I go to Walmart, I park close to the doors mostly if its night time. I also try to exit at the same time as others so that I am not all alone.

There are many ways you can add to your surroundings so that you are not in danger, But seems these days, every one and his brother who walks within a mile of a Walmart is in danger of his life!

If this is your case, then don't go to Walmart alone! If you claim you work there and don't have any means to leave and get to your car because of this, ask a LP to watch you get to your car!

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Just my .02 cents.

[Philadelphia]

I fall in with Headcase and PA Patriot and NineSeven and others who say that thinking about going for the gun is way too early when there have been no threats or threatening actions, and also crowds your mind from thinking about other things you could do to get out/away unstratched if things did start to head to a bad place.

At the outset, good for you for thinking about these things. A good way to develop your combat mindset is to put yourself as deeply as you can in the scenerio and think carefully about what you see, feel and do. I can't tell you how many people respond to challenge scenerios with "well every situation is different and you don't know what you'll do till you get there" which translates into "I don't feel like thinking about it and my level of planning is basically is to get hurt and die and/or wind up in jail when something happens." You carry your tactical tool box with you on top of your shoulders; the tools don't materialize in it out of nothing when you need more tools.

Get used to the idea of being scared. If your life is in danger, you will be scared. It should not be a foreign feeling when that time comes -- although it will likely be off the charts in degree. Being scared does not equal lethal threat. Your mind is supposed to be scared when faced with any perceived threat. It's a good feeling -- you can deal with this. Do what you need to do to get out safe.

In the scenrio you pose, it would also be really hard not to get angry. Channel the anger is good. React to the anger is bad.

Well, to put my money where my mouth is, what would I have done in that type of situation (which may be laughable, but I come up with what I can). Number one, the guy is bigger than you and seems to want to antagonize you -- in other words, a bully. You didn't say if he was blocking your access for you and your GF to just get back in your car and say "have a good night." Let's assume you'd have to move closer to him to get in your car and he blocked your way. Can you move back toward the store saying "oh, I forgot something" grab your GF by the arm and go back? Once there, don't hesitate to call the cops, tell them of the situation and that you are concerned that you are about to get a severe beating (given the size and attitude of the guy -- if you're actually thinking about drawing or shooting, there should be no hesitation to report your fears to police and why -- if you do shoot you'd be doing a lot of that don't forget). They'll usually get there fast with a report like that (hulk with two friends acting hinkey, driving "jacked" (is that drunk?), late at night in dark, lonely convenience store parking lot). Would that have worked? If not, why not -- what was going on? What would have worked?

[DaveM55]

Get one of these consumer Tasers for around $349.99, they work very well!

http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...unt2=693305611

[svs]

First post. Interesting site.
I do disagree with the idea that you cannot meet physical threats with deadly force.
Especially in a situation where you are protecting your wife, GF or children. Its easy to retreat if you are alone, having to place yourself between a threat and others completly changes things.
The kid at Kutztown university who was beaten to death by three drunks last fall learned the hard way that these goons WILL KILL YOU. And he had a black belt from what I read in the paper.