Push/ Pull...and why you shouldn't do it

[synergy]

So, recently I've been seeing a ton of shooters coming in doing the whole "Weaver stance" push/pull grip. These shooters tend to be having a lot of malfunctions.

I saw a couple of guys, fresh from Army boot camp and deployment, come in and rent a M9. They did their classic push/pull grip...and had the gun jam on them a few times each magazine. They come ask for my help...I work the action, it feels fine....load up a magazine, and the gun runs just fine (in my modern isosceles, full extension, shooting stance). I tell them to stop trying to "pull" the gun back in with their support hand, and to only think about getting the gun out away from them...and what'd ya know, it starts running just fine.

We've all heard of "limp wristing". People think of someone who has a loose grip on the gun, and that allows excess muzzle rise...in turn, you get a malfunction. What I'm arguing (and I'm not saying I'm 100% right, this is just my observation) is that PULLING the gun back, can often create these same malfunctions.

What is happening, is that if the shooter is focused on this push/ pull "stabilizing" tension...that the gun isn't getting the resistance it needs to cycle fully.

Think about it this way. If you push your hands together, like you're praying ...and even if you push them together really hard, with a lot of muscle behind them...if someone pushes on 1 of your hands from the side...your hands are going to move away from the direction of the force. Essentially, you are not resisting the force. Your arms are opposing each other, and cancel each other out...all you've done is marry your hands (and maybe forearms) to the gun.

What this push/ pull technique allows to have happen, is that during recoil, the WHOLE gun is allowed to recoil. In order for the action to cycle properly, the slide must recoil independently of the frame. You need to give the gun a stable platform to recoil against, so that the frame stays relatively stationary, while the slide cycles as it should.

This past week, I've probably helped 20 shooters eliminate malfunctions they were having by focusing on driving the gun out away from them, and not pulling the gun back towards them.

Some times I've had shooters that didn't believe this, fire the gun strong hand only. Magically the gun stops jamming on them after they stop pulling it back towards them...go figure.

Part of me thinks the whole "M9 is a piece of junk" thing we hear about from military users, is due to the fact that they're all getting trained with this push/ pull crap.

Keeping the gun well oiled comes into play, too. And sometimes this push/ pull technique will work for folks, until their gun gets dirty and dry. But when the gun is held firm, and is extended away from the shooter, and not pulled back in...the gun runs more reliably, both wet and dry. Guns that some shooters write off as too dirty and dry to function, will run 100% for me with a good tight grip when driven out towards the target.

I'm not gonna get into stances here, cause that's a whole other bunch of crap I don't want to get into...but whoever thinks the location of your feet affects where the bullet goes needs to wake up.

Bottom line, is that there's no reason for "push/ pull" on handguns. And I challenge the non-believers to prove why this is wrong.

In the mean while...here's some different shooters driving the gun out away from them, at full (or near full) extension.


Larry Vickers

A class at Thunder Ranch

Julie Goloski

Matt Burkett

Todd Louis Green

Todd Jarrett

Brian Enos

Rob Leatham

Dave Sevigny


Notice a trend yet?

[Pa. Patriot]

[Hoootie]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Great picture! I laughed out loud at that.

In response to the pictures, I noticed that a few of the shooters have their thumbs pressed against the slide...I have never tried this, but wouldn't that injure your hand? Between the action of the slide cycling and the heat generated, I can't imagine that feels too great...

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Hoootie

Great picture! I laughed out loud at that.

In response to the pictures, I noticed that a few of the shooters have their thumbs pressed against the slide...I have never tried this, but wouldn't that injure your hand? Between the action of the slide cycling and the heat generated, I can't imagine that feels too great...

They're not pressing against the slide, they're just next to it.

I've physically pressed my thumbs hard against the slide on a few different pistols with that grip before....best I could get was the gun to malfunction...never got hurt.

[XD45]

aweome thanks for the help, do you offer anytype of training course? If so where are you located? I know sgt has been having some problems with his grip also, so i'm sure he'd be in.

[JoeWilliams]

I've used the Weaver stance for 3 decades, including 1 of them as a cop, in competition, and for everyday target shooting.

Not once has the stance caused a malfunction. To say the theory that it will cause one is far fetched. Of course, it is as easy to hold the gun incorrectly in the Weaver stance as it is in the old-fashioned, out-dated isocoles, but it's a flight of fantasy to blame the shooter's inadequacies on the stance.

Weaver stance kept me alive in an actual shootout. You are exposing far less of your body to return fire, and it's easier to shoot well, quickly. I'll stick with it. Those pictures you posted of the games... well games are fun, but the targets aren't shooting back.

[Steve in PA]

I used to shoot from the Weaver stance. I don't any more, but I never had a problem or a malfunction. If it works for the shooter, who is to say its wrong?

The same can be said of the Weaver vs Iso vs modified Weaver, etc. Some stress one over the other and point out the strong and weak points of each.

[Hokkmike]

Great post synergy - thanks!

[Agent Smith]

There is definitely some truth behind what synergy has to say. I've never encountered any actual jams from this, but there is definitely some truth to it.

There have been a few times, when after firing the last round, the slide would close, rather than stay open (indicating that I still have another round left), but in fact the chamber and magazine were empty, and on each one of these, I recognized right away that this "limp wristing" it, or as I always thought, not anticipating the recoil was the problem, because my usual grip is committed to muscle memory, so I recognized what I did differently right away, and by straightening, and stiffening up my arms/wrists, it didn't happen again.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by synergy

We've all heard of "limp wristing". People think of someone who has a loose grip on the gun, and that allows excess muzzle rise...in turn, you get a malfunction. What I'm arguing (and I'm not saying I'm 100% right, this is just my observation) is that PULLING the gun back, can often create these same malfunctions.

What is happening, is that if the shooter is focused on this push/ pull "stabilizing" tension...that the gun isn't getting the resistance it needs to cycle fully.

What this push/ pull technique allows to have happen, is that during recoil, the WHOLE gun is allowed to recoil. In order for the action to cycle properly, the slide must recoil independently of the frame. You need to give the gun a stable platform to recoil against, so that the frame stays relatively stationary, while the slide cycles as it should.

Weaver works just as well as Iso with respect to controlling recoil. If a shooter using Weaver is having "limp-wrist" type malfunctions, they probably aren't "pushing" enough with their firing hand which means they are essentially only "pulling" via their support hand which in turn means they aren't applying isometric tension. The pistol is thus allowed to move rearward while the slide is reciprocating and that will result in a "limp-wrist" malfunction.

Some times I've had shooters that didn't believe this, fire the gun strong hand only. Magically the gun stops jamming on them after they stop pulling it back towards them...go figure.

That's because when we shoot one handed (strong or weak side) the arm is at full extension with the elbow locked preventing the frame from moving rearward with the slide.

Part of me thinks the whole "M9 is a piece of junk" thing we hear about from military users, is due to the fact that they're all getting trained with this push/ pull crap.

The M9 isn't the most durable pistol though it is reliable with OEM magazines but I'd like you to tell Scott Reitz and Larry Mudgett et al and the rest of the guys in LAPD D Platoon (SWAT) that Weaver is crap because over the years they been in more gunfights and killed more criminals than the next five big city SWAT teams put together and they shoot Weaver.

Bottom line, is that there's no reason for "push/ pull" on handguns.

Yes there is because it works if done correctly and if that is the grip you prefer.

And I challenge the non-believers to prove why this is wrong.

I just did.

In the mean while...here's some different shooters driving the gun out away from them, at full (or near full) extension.

Larry Vickers

I give you Larry Mudgett.

A class at Thunder Ranch

In spite of what TR teaches these days, Clint Smith still shoots Weaver.

A student at Gunsite

Precisely, "a" student at Gunsite. Gunsite still teaches Weaver although their doctrine has become watered down due to a lack of doctrinal leadership. That student is shooting solo for some reason. Perhaps he is having some sort of problem that the Instructors want to focus on but nevertheless, if someone goes to a school that teaches Weaver and they are an accomplished Iso shooter, that school will not try to change them to shoot Weaver. That picture doesn't tell me much.

James Yeager

I recall a similar thread at Glock Talk where Yeager proclaimed "Weaver works".

Todd Jarrett
Brian Enos
Rob Leatham
Dave Sevigny

All from the world of competition. What conclusions can we draw aside form the fact that Iso is the grip / stance of choice in IPSC?

None of those guys has ever been in a gunfight. What conclusions can we draw aside from the fact that people have also used Iso in gunfights and prevailed proving that "Iso works" to use Yeagers words?

synergy,

I am enjoying watching your development as a shooter through your posts on this board. You're learning, you're enthusiastic and from this thread you're starting to "think" about the finer details of some of the components of marksmanship.

I don't doubt for a moment that you've witnessed people shooting Weaver experience malfunctions but in the last ten years of helping with F.I.R.E. Institute courses and having attended close to 1200 hours of formal training, I have never seen Weaver in and of itself cause a malfunction. Pushing with the firing hand is a critical component of Weaver. Some people mistakenly squeeze with the firing hand instead of pushing. If you don't push, I can see the potential for a "limp-wrist" type malfunction.