Would I have been justified?

[BradfordCOHunter]

I was reading another thread on the site, and was reminded about an incident that took place late last summer. I figured I'd like to get some facts about what rights I had under the circumstances.
I was taking a walk around the park on a sat morning at about 1 a.m... I was wearing an i-pod, so I looked both ways a few times, before I crossed the street on a green light. Something told me to look up again, as I was halfway across the street. I look up to see an old POS van speeding toward me with no headlights on. He must have turned on to the street from the side street, because you can see quite far on the main road.

Anyways, I look up and see this van literally 40 yards from hitting me, and doing about 55 MPH in a 25 MPH zone. I jump back out of the way in disbelief, and scream all kind of obscenities at him as he passes. Boy, I was F'N mad!
Don't ya know the guy swings a turn and goes up the driveway to the school, which heads up to the parking lot, which is where I was originally going..so now I'm pissed, and I'm walking up the driveway to curse this guy out.

On the way up the driveway, I removed my headphones, and all I could hear was shit crashing and scraping. I get halfway up to the top, and the van comes flying back down the driveway, and damn near runs me down again! It was at that point I realized the guy was highly intoxicated, but that's not before I pulled my sidearm and damn near took a head shot on him as he weaved past me again.

In the end, I watched him swerve the corner, and then proceed to crash in to shit all the way up the block and out of sight. I had NO cell phone on me, as I was a bit peeved when I left for my walk, and didn't want to be bothered. Wished I had brought it in the end...that guy probably killed someone before the night was over. I called when I got home and gave a description on the van, but by then 20 Min's had passed.

I REALLY almost shot this guy! Having had a LTCF for over 15 years, It's the first time I have ever drawn my weapon in such a manner. It was basically a reaction, and was not something I thought about. In the end, I would have felt even more justified, having seen him swerve and side swipe everything in his path, headlights still off, etc...Heck, I had a son who was still out driving the streets in the neighborhood at that time...god forbid!

So aside from calling the police immediately had I had my cell phone, would I have been legally just in firing rounds in to that idiots windshield, while he was barreling down the dark driveway at me head on, with no headlights on? Would I have been justified in taking action to prevent him from endangering the lives of other's he was sure to encounter on his drunken journey?

Being in Philly, I thought the better of it, and did not fire, although I had the XD's trigger slack taken up, and was as close as one can be to firing off the first round. I was very concerned for innocent lives when he left the scene, and shit like that just makes me sick to my stomach. I wished he would have pulled over when I yelled at him the first time, and got out to run his mouth...I'd have put a beating on him, and made sure I took the keys, so he couldn't kill anyone. What would YOU have done in such a situation, and what is LEGAL to do in that situation?

[Statkowski]

No justification for shooting. You were able to safely retreat, as required by law. Once out of the way of the vehicle, it was no longer a specific threat to you.

[JoeWilliams]

No way you would have had legal justification. Not even close.

Now, if he started chasing you with the van, might be a different story.

[XD45]

hell no, i'm not gonna play make believe and go into 20 thing that could have changed the situation, but even pulling you firearm wasn't justified. Seems to me you where out walking around pissed off, not necessarily looking for trouble but when trouble found you you clearly didn't have a good enough head on your shoulders to avoid the situation, infact made it worse when you started to walking after him to tell him off with a f*cking gun in your hand. If you'd have shot him while he was driving passed you'd be in jail right now, probably even if he was driving towards you to hit you the second time unless you lied about how it went down and there was no cameras or witness's(doubtful).

[BradfordCOHunter]

I was only out of the way because I jumped out of the way at the last second....the 1st time, that is. So I do not have a right as a pedestrian, to stand my ground off the street? So I have to run and dodge a vehicle being used as a battering ram by an intoxicated person, twice in a matter of 1 minute? I realize that once I was safely out of harms way, I wouldn't be justified.

I'm more or less talking about when I was walking through the driveway up the hill, and look to see this van speeding towards me again, headlights off, in a dangerous and threatening manner. I KNOW it was a dangerous and threatening manner, because he already almost hit me once, when I was LEGALLY crossing the street..I mean, WTF if I would have twisted my ankle or knee, and couldnt get out of the way in time...I'm just going to let him run me down?

Is the vehicle driven by an intoxicated person driving in that manner, NOT technically considered a lethal weapon? While I'm not saying you are wrong, I AM saying that as a pedestrian, I had every right to continue walking to my oringinal destination, and to protect myself while on way there. The law seems to do everything but protect the innocent. The freakin criminals and abuser's have more legal rights than we do...It makes me want to puke! I now see why some people do certain things, and just walk away, as opposed to trying to be on the up and up, and risk getting prosecuted for standing tall and being honest about they're actions. It shouldn't have to be that way.

[Snert]

I unfortunatly think you would have been in deep trouble.

I dont know for sure but, so someone will chime in.

But to take a shot at a moving vehical is probley against the law. Plus the fact the law will say you had time to move/flee. But on top of that someone will say the driver was drunk, not a lifethreat to your immediate personal space.


HUMM, now here is how the media would work it...

TODAYS NEWS, ----Just for entertainment---

today a disgruntled man was out taking a walk with the plans of terror on his mind. He was so mad he left his cell phone home, and carried a gun instead. He was out to take his anger out on anyone police say. Well the poor man, with a alcohol addiction has had the misfortune of meeting this disgruntled walker.
The walker could have used his cell phone to call the police. BUT instead he decided to to take the poor mans life with a AUTOMATIC pistol.
The anti-gun association, says this is a prime example of why guns should be banned. Here a man with a illness is gunned down by a disgruntled man with a gun. Why just because he felt the need to carry a gun instead of a cell phone...and blah blah blahblaba....

YOU made the right decision in my opinion..But next time just carry the phone and turn it off. Gives you the freedome to walk and vent, but there when you need it.

Snert..

[Thekatar]

Originally Posted by BradfordCOHunter

...although I had the XD's trigger slack taken up, and was as close as one can be to firing off the first round. I was very concerned for innocent lives when he left the scene, and shit like that just makes me sick to my stomach. I wished he would have pulled over when I yelled at him the first time, and got out to run his mouth...I'd have put a beating on him, and made sure I took the keys, so he couldn't kill anyone. What would YOU have done in such a situation, and what is LEGAL to do in that situation?

Wow.

You are not an LEO. If you are interested in putting "a beating" on people you may want to reconsider carrying a handgun - or you could also join the force and make it official.

[headcase]

It is a good thing you didn't pull that trigger. I'm not so sure that even un holstering your sidearm wasn't illegal. In the first part of the story, you were obviously able to retreat from the danger. At that point, you then made a conscious decision to engage this person. Being pissed off is not justification to discharge your weapon. You progressed from one bad decision to another in a very short span of time. From crossing the street while listening to your ipod, to going to look for a confrontation, to un holstering your weapon, to pointing your weapon at the vehicle, to applying pressure to the trigger. The only good decision you made in that whole scenario, was to not pull the trigger. This is not a flame, you asked if you would have been justified. I hope you can objectively review your actions and see how very close you came to leaving your son and family to fend for themselves. You would have had to have been unable to get away from the van, such as being in a dead end alley, to even be in the neighborhood of justified.

[BradfordCOHunter]

Originally Posted by XD45

hell no, i'm not gonna play make believe and go into 20 thing that could have changed the situation, but even pulling you firearm wasn't justified. Seems to me you where out walking around pissed off, not necessarily looking for trouble but when trouble found you you clearly didn't have a good enough head on your shoulders to avoid the situation, infact made it worse when you started to walking after him to tell him off with a f*cking gun in your hand. If you'd have shot him while he was driving passed you'd be in jail right now, probably even if he was driving towards you to hit you the second time unless you lied about how it went down and there was no cameras or witness's(doubtful).

I did NOT have a gun in my hand when I was heading up to where he went! I was heading to that spot from the beginning, and it just so happened that's where he went. It's not like I ran after him to pursue it further, but being as I was heading there anyways, and he was there, you're FN right I was going to say something to him if he was there upon my arrival....the guy almost killed me while running a red light, without his lights on!

Being peeved, doesn't mean I was in a bad mood or looking for trouble. I just had a long hard day, and needed some fresh air. For the record, I did not EVER draw my gun, until the point he came around the corner of the driveway at a high rate of speed, (a blind corner) and was almost on top of me in a few seconds, yet again. The terrain was such, that the sidewalk has no curb, and is actually a level part of the driveway.

I was on that sidewalk, and I only drew my gun when he swerved over on to the sidewalk heading toward me, after leaving the driving surface. It's all woods and big grassy hills there, and there was really no place to move to safety. I did the best I could to avoid him again, and I literally had to run off the sidewalk and up this big, slick, grassy hill. Perhaps I didn't explain ALL of the details originally, sorry.

To say I was pissed off and perhaps seeking a confrontation, is not just. There have been times when I probably could have legally drawn and used my sidearm, and have chosen not to do so. I am MORE responsible as a legal carrier, and I often go out of my way to avoid confrontation's because of that responsibility. I have worked repossessing car's in some of Philly's worst area's all hours of the night, and have had my share of "iffy" situations...and I still never drew my sidearm and always found another way out.

There is a thread on the forum about the Steeler's player who punched his wife around in public, and many people who replied, felt obligated to intervene in that particular circumstance. Some of which stated they would possibly even draw their sidearm, and place a citizens arrest on the perp, or use deadly force if he were beating her too badly. A few more even stated that if the perp charged them empty handed, they might in fact fire upon him in a crowded public setting, because he is a pro athlete and they would fear a terrible beating.

So right or wrong, my point is this: Did I not have a legit right to fear for my life? I lived it, and I believe I did. Much more so IMO, then some pro football player punching his wife in a crowded public setting, and then attacking me bare handed, for trying to thwart his assault. Can a vehicle be considered/used as a lethal weapon? I think so, much more so then a bare handed man beating his wife, then trying to beat me up. So why would it be OK to stop the man assaulting the woman, by drawing and placing him under arrest, or even possibly shooting him, and NOT OK for me to draw my weapon at all? What, I have to actually get hit by the van first? No thanks!

Sorry, but I doubt I'd be here typing any of this, had I been hit by that van. I'm not saying any of you are right or wrong. If I knew for sure, I'd have never posted this situation. Maybe it was my poor telling of said situation, that got me my responses...not sure. Perhaps this thread can at least serve some purpose, and be used as "brain training" information. IMO, it never hurts to go through scenarios' that are unclear, borderline, or unusual. "knowledge is king."

[TaePo]

The van hit many other objects. It would seem that you were not an intended target. There was no apparent malice/intent on the part of the van driver and you had time to remove yourself from the situation. I think both of these items would be considered.

You can only 'stand your ground' at your place of work (with limitations) and at your home/abode.

Now, if you were in an alley and there was no place to run, let's say buildings, walls or fences and a narrow road, and the van was speeding down on you, there may be justification.

Look at it this way, one day you are crossing a dark road and a vehicle pulls out, peels / burns rubber and comes charging at you. Would you be justified?

You do not know if the driver is impaired, just stupid or does not see you because of your dark clothing. If you can safely move, then move out of the way.