worlds end state park and CC?

[slate]

a couple of weekends ago me and a couple of friends (one was an NJ officer) went to worlds end state park for the weekend. i am a resident of philadelphia, and can honestly say i feel safer in my concrete jungle than the backwoods of northern PA. i have my LTCF, and did carry during our stay in the park. my friends knew i had it, and the officer was glad to see i brought it. now i recently saw that its illegal to carry in state parks. if i was confronted by a park ranger would i have been in trouble? even though i had it strictly for defense purposes and we weren't a wild bunch of degenerates. i just ask because we plan on going back and now i'm unsure of what to do.

[LittleRedToyota]

1. if you had run into a ranger, you would only have possibly had trouble if he knew you had the gun.

2. carrying a firearm in a state park is not illegal in and of itself. however, there is a DCNR regulation (not a law) against it. however, breaking a DCNR regulation is, in turn a summary offense. what this means is that, yes, it is illegal (in a roundabout way) to carry in a state park, but it's not equivalent to, for example, carrying in a court house or secure area of an airport.

3. you are vulnerable when camping (or hiking or whatever) in state parks. they can actually be ideal places for smart criminals (you are often alone and far from help. people in state parks often have a lot of cash as they are on vacation or long weekend. etc. etc.)

i'm not suggesting doing anything illegal...just stating facts...take them as you will.

[Ramtuff]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

1
2. carrying a firearm in a state park is not illegal in and of itself. however, there is a DCNR regulation (not a law) against it. however, breaking a DCNR regulation is, in turn a summary offense. what this means is that, yes, it is illegal (in a roundabout way) to carry in a state park, but it's not equivalent to, for example, carrying in a court house or secure area of an airport.

I'm not up the state park regs, but wouldn't that go against the state preemption?

[N3HCP]

I'm not up the state park regs, but wouldn't that go against the state preemption?

You would think so. Do a search, this has been discusses ad nauseum. The bottom line is it's never been tested in court. Sorry, but I don't have the money to be the test case, however if anyone would like to volunteer....

My wife and I were at World's End this past weekend. (Our exploits are recorded on my blog at http://n3hcp.blogspot.com/.) We camp in State Parks all the time. I respect their rules and don't carry in the park. (The way I feel is if I can't or won't play by their rules, I should stay out of their sand box.) Usually, I have a gun in the camper or tent at night and locked in the car during the day when I'm walking around in the park. The rules allow for a gun under those conditions, but not carried in the park.

World's End is an unusual case as State Park campgrounds go. The camp ground is a mile or so from the office, right along the road with absolutely no control over who come in. While Sullivan County is, without a doubt, one of the safest places in the state, IMHO a gun in that campground at night is a must. That said, we camp and travel with a retired official from DCNR and, as far as I know, there has never been a problem at World's End.

State Parks are, for the most part, very safe places. In all my (many) years of camping in them I have only been uncomfortable once, and that was at World's End a couple years ago. I was tenting near the entrance and a car came about 20 yards from my tent and stopped for about 15 minutes at 3:00 in the morning. Yes, I had the .44 Mag S&W in my hand and no, I never left the tent. Finally, the car turned around and left.

[Ramtuff]

Originally Posted by N3HCP

You would think so. Do a search, this has been discusses ad nauseum. The bottom line is it's never been tested in court. Sorry, but I don't have the money to be the test case, however if anyone would like to volunteer....

Ah. So it's along the lines of carrying in a school then.

[shermdo]

Originally Posted by Ramtuff

Ah. So it's along the lines of carrying in a school then.

No not really like the school controversy at all. Some points of view are that carrying on school property is illegal. Carrying in a state park is NOT illegal in any way. It is currently against DCNR regulations. They can issue you a ticket like a parking ticket but it is NOT a crime.

I personally would NEVER go into the "woods" without a handgun. There is no doubt that the bad elements of society can and do sometimes go into the woods as well. If you wee to find yourself in serious trouble the cell phone very well may not work and even if it did how many HOURS might that response take, especially at night. If you are in a state park just keep it concealed. Plain and simple.

I AM NOT A LAWYER SO THIS IS JUST MY LAYMAN'S ADVISE.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Ramtuff

I'm not up the state park regs, but wouldn't that go against the state preemption?

Not at all. Preemption only covers "municipalities", which DCNR is not.

§6120. Limitation on the Regulation of Firearms and Ammunition.

(a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.

(a. l) No right of action.

(1) No political subdivision may bring or maintain an action at law or in equity against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement, injunctive relief or any other relief or remedy resulting from or relating to either the lawful design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition or the lawful marketing or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public.

(2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a political subdivision from bringing or maintaining an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision.

(b) Definitions.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Dealer." The term shall include any person engaged in the business of selling at wholesale or retail a firearm or ammunition.

"Firearms." This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 (relating to sale and use of air rifles).

"Political subdivision." The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

(Chgd. by 1.1999, Act 59(7), eff.12/15/99.)

[LittleRedToyota]

just an FYI for anyone reading this thread.

carrying in state *forests* is legal (as is carrying in allegheny national forest). so, that is a possible alternative to going to a state park, depending on what you want to do.

[tl_3237]

Quote from OP -slate : "a couple of weekends ago me and a couple of friends (one was an NJ officer)"

Assuming that the NJ friend was an LEO, was he carryinmg and does the LEOSA preempt state park rules or only state laws requiring license to carry?

Does LEOSA also preempt private property carry restrictions or do they have to play by the same rules as LTCF individuals?

[phillychoppin]

Originally Posted by N3HCP

You would think so. Do a search, this has been discusses ad nauseum. The bottom line is it's never been tested in court. Sorry, but I don't have the money to be the test case, however if anyone would like to volunteer....

My wife and I were at World's End this past weekend. (Our exploits are recorded on my blog at http://n3hcp.blogspot.com/.) We camp in State Parks all the time. I respect their rules and don't carry in the park. (The way I feel is if I can't or won't play by their rules, I should stay out of their sand box.) Usually, I have a gun in the camper or tent at night and locked in the car during the day when I'm walking around in the park. The rules allow for a gun under those conditions, but not carried in the park.

World's End is an unusual case as State Park campgrounds go. The camp ground is a mile or so from the office, right along the road with absolutely no control over who come in. While Sullivan County is, without a doubt, one of the safest places in the state, IMHO a gun in that campground at night is a must. That said, we camp and travel with a retired official from DCNR and, as far as I know, there has never been a problem at World's End.

State Parks are, for the most part, very safe places. In all my (many) years of camping in them I have only been uncomfortable once, and that was at World's End a couple years ago. I was tenting near the entrance and a car came about 20 yards from my tent and stopped for about 15 minutes at 3:00 in the morning. Yes, I had the .44 Mag S&W in my hand and no, I never left the tent. Finally, the car turned around and left.

Nice Blog!

While I agree with your thoughts on not carrying on private property if the property owner has objections, I don't feel the same way about state parks. The bottom line is that they are not 'their sandbox' as you stated but rather the state parks are 'our' sandbox, yours, mine and every other citizen.

The woods can be a dangerous and, in my opinion, are not the place to be unarmed. As I see it the downside is a summary offense that I'd have grounds to contest, compared to who-know-what if you run into a bad guy.

When I take my family camping the choice is clear for me.

~Just my $.02
PC