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Old February 16th, 2008
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Default Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

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Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

By MARK SCOLFORO
Associated Press Writer

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) -- The Philadelphia City Council took drastic action last year to address the tide of gun violence engulfing the city, which has suffered through more than a murder a day for the past two years.

The council passed ordinances to license firearms, reduce straw purchases, regulate ammunition sales and ban possession of assault weapons.

None has become law.

That's because a 1974 state law says only the General Assembly can regulate guns. Two Philadelphia City Council members want that restriction overturned, and their lawsuit against the state Legislature and the National Rifle Association is scheduled to land before a full Commonwealth Court panel next month.

Like all but a small handful of states, Pennsylvania does not permit local governments to pass their own gun ordinances. The state Supreme Court upheld the law as recently as 1996.

Philadelphia City Council members Darrell L. Clarke and Donna Reed Miller are taking another shot at it.

Their lawsuit describes a "gun-supportive" General Assembly that is hostage to the NRA's demands, a situation they say prevents them from keeping their constituents safe and makes them fearful for their own safety.

They point to New York as an example of how a state can reduce urban violence by allowing a city to enact its own gun laws while not reducing access to firearms elsewhere. New York City law requires handguns to be licensed, bans assault weapons and limits how often people can buy guns. The city had a lower murder rate than Philadelphia last year.

But Clarke and Miller will have to persuade state courts to limit the General Assembly's role on one of the state's most politically explosive topics. By one estimate, nearly two-thirds of Pennsylvania households own guns, and the state has a deeply ingrained hunting and gun-ownership culture.

When the House considered enacting some of the Philadelphia proposals statewide last year, they did not make it out of committee despite an appeal by Gov. Ed Rendell. A dramatic walkout by members of the Legislative Black Caucus in December after a failure to address violence in Philadelphia seemingly did nothing to change minds.

And the week after the Virginia Tech campus shootings, hundreds of gun-rights advocates packed the Pennsylvania Capitol to protest a Philadelphia Democrat's proposal for gun registration and listen as several state lawmakers - mostly Republicans - spoke of expanding gun rights.

"There are studies indicating that gun control in various jurisdictions has been ineffective and, by impairing the ability of honest citizens for lawful self-defense, may actually contribute to the criminal use of guns," wrote Linda J. Shorey, a lawyer for the state Senate.

George Bochetto, the city-paid lawyer who represents Clarke and Miller, said they are not trying to force local governments in other parts of the state to restrict guns.

"If those counties - and if the state Legislature, with those counties - are happy or satisfied with the way they are, fine, we're not going to change a thing," he said. "All Philadelphia is looking to do is, within its own city borders, have the authority to regulate some of the illegal practices that plague the city."

Lawyers for the House and Senate argue the courts should not reopen the 1996 state Supreme Court decision, which said gun regulation is a statewide concern. In that case, the court rejected Philadelphia's attempt to ban assault weapons.

"This action is not about what firearms regulations should be in place in the commonwealth," the House's lawyer, Jonathan F. Bloom, wrote in a recent court filing. "Instead, the operative question is who should decide - the state Legislature or each individual municipality. The answer to this question has been settled for years."

Bochetto said some things have changed since then, including the recent increase in Philadelphia's gun violence. Also, the state Supreme Court recently ruled the city can impose its own rules when it comes to campaign finance.

And three justices who issued the 4-0 decision in 1996 have since left the court.

"I'm playing Texas Hold 'Em - of my seven cards, I now get six new cards," Bochetto said.

Clarke and Miller first sued in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court in July, but the case was later transferred to Commonwealth Court, where disputes between Pennsylvania governmental bodies often end up. The March 12 hearing concerns whether the case should be thrown out or allowed to continue.

NRA lobbyist John Hohenwarter said the group's 250,000 Pennsylvania members do not think the Philadelphia ordinances will work. They also worry about having to comply with a patchwork of gun laws and believe it would set a bad precedent, he said.

"I mean, can you imagine if we could have cities or councils suing the state for all sorts of things the Legislature should or should not act upon?" Hohenwarter said.

Last month, Clarke and Miller reintroduced the ordinances, and Mayor Michael Nutter has said he would enforce them even without General Assembly authorization.

"He's interested in anything that seeks to address the problem of violence in Philadelphia, and whether ultimately that help comes from legislation or from the courts or from any other place, we're interested," said Nutter's press secretary, Doug Oliver.

More litigation would inevitably follow once someone was accused of violating the ordinances.

"The very first charge," said Steve MacNett, chief counsel to the state Senate's Republican caucus, "is going to wind up in the courts on an immediate basis."

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old February 16th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

yes NYC has a lower murder rate and less freedom than Philadelphia, but they ENFORCE their laws. Look at Washington D.C., they have more stringent gun control and their homocides are off the charts. As are Phila.

These guys gotta go...
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

New York also doesn't have the poverty (read between the lines) that Philadelphia has.

Apartments even in Harlem are creeping up on the half million dollar mark.


However--New York had bad, bad crime in the 80s, and a gun ban was in place.


It is cyclical. The things I'm seeing in Philadelphia are the same things I saw in New York City during the 80s and 90s. Philadelphia's building boom mirrors New York's. Once property values start going up dramatically in core areas, people will want to live in adjacent areas and end up buying houses in bulk. That will drive out the unsavory element.
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

Stories like this make me neurotic. I had a fit last year when I read the original "ordnances"... and now these two are at it again.

I don't plan on staying in Philly any longer than I need to.....but that may be 2-4 more years. So racing through my mind right now like a pack of rabid meth-smoking squirrels on unicycles is the fear that they may actually win.

The question, which I would like some of you PA and PHL natives to answer, is will they? Is the court likely to rule in their favor?

I could write them a letter, but will it do any good?
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

Its a good question, case law is on our side, both 1996 rulings went in favor of the gun owner. That being said the PA supreme court has changed significantly since then, I don't know where the current judges stand on 2a issues. I would contact your legislators and try to get an amicus curae filed by the state legislators, similiar to what some congressmen did for the current US v. Heller case.
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

I would say any sort of input from you as in writing letters, emailing, making phone calls (more effective) is a good idea.

I just moved back to Berks County from philadelphia. THANK GOD.

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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

New York City DOES NOT write it's own gun laws! Pistol Licensing in NYC is covered by STATE law, and the AWB is STATE WIDE under state law.

In this instance both the politicians quoted and the media quoting them need to reach around behind themselves grab their ears and forcefully pull their heads out of their rectums.
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHands View Post
Its a good question, case law is on our side, both 1996 rulings went in favor of the gun owner. That being said the PA supreme court has changed significantly since then, I don't know where the current judges stand on 2a issues. I would contact your legislators and try to get an amicus curae filed by the state legislators, similiar to what some congressmen did for the current US v. Heller case.
Ortiz was decided barely more than 10 years ago and nothing has changed since then which would justify a change in the PA Court's position on basically the exact same issue.

This is Council gRAandstanding to Pander to their constituency (CRAP for short).

I'm not particularly concerned about this. Even the antis I argue such issues with are in full agreement that a failure to follow Ortiz would be a significant dilution of settled statewide statutory and constitutional rights, not just gun rights, as well as reflect very poorly on the independence and intellectual honesty of the PA Court. That's not likely to happen.
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Old February 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneLungMcClung View Post
Stories like this make me neurotic. I had a fit last year when I read the original "ordnances"... and now these two are at it again.

I don't plan on staying in Philly any longer than I need to.....but that may be 2-4 more years. So racing through my mind right now like a pack of rabid meth-smoking squirrels on unicycles is the fear that they may actually win.

The question, which I would like some of you PA and PHL natives to answer, is will they? Is the court likely to rule in their favor?

I could write them a letter, but will it do any good?
Write Nutter, your district councilperson and council at large. Let them know that not everyone in philly thinks "gun control" and yet more gun laws are what's right and best for the law abiding residents of the city.
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Old February 18th, 2008
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Default Re: Philly, NRA and Legislature heading to court over local gun rules

There was a suggestion about writing legislators to ask them to sign on as amici (I believe that's the correct plural). No need, the legislature is a named party in the suit, i.e., they are the defendants. Not a bad idea to put in your two cents encouraging a vigorous defense, but they are in it whether they want to be or not...

The heart of the matter is as much about the sovereignty of the state and the authority of the legislature as it is about guns. I know that's heresy, it's the guns that matter to us, but there are actually additional issues at stake. Think about this for a minute... a political subdivision of the state (Philadelphia) is suing the legislature for not enacting the laws which the political subdivision wants. Maybe next time, Erie sues because they feel that the northwestern division of PennDOT didn't get enough money to buy more trucks to plow snow.
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