Philadelphia LTCF regulation conflicts with state laws?

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by gbrown221

I will PM lprgcFrank

and the others.

I would have to find a place in Phila that is OC friendly also to eat.

Regards,

Greg

If you find a place I'm in

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

Above emphasis added by me. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but disagree a bit with this statement.

A LEO cannot just stop you and ask if you are armed. I OC frequently, and because of the public attention of my hearing may be slightly more recognizable as a 'carrier' to the general public even if my firearm is concealed. Recognition of my face, and the connection that I carry is not sufficient reason for a LEO to approach me out of the blue and inquire if I am carrying or not.

I don't think thats the intention of the law. But if your pulled over sor speeding or drunk driving the officer may ask you if your armed or if you have a firearm in the car. At that point you would have to answer yes and turn over you LTCF to him.

[SouthCentral]

I bought an hour of a PA criminal defence lawyer's time last week to get a briefing on PA self defence issues. I specifically asked about handing an LEO my LTCF with my PA drivers license if stopped for a traffic violation. He told me an officer may not ask you without probable cause and recomended I keep my mouth shut. He further said that if he/she asks the question, "Do you have anything in here I should know about?" you may answer with something like "You know I don't have to answer that question.". The lawyer also said you should never lie to an LEO. As I told the him, I don't know how I'll respond to the "...anything I should know about?" question. I have NRA, IDPA and USPSA stickers on my back window (a little truck) which my pro 2nd Amendment friends say is an open invitation for an LEO to ask. Beside simply not lying to an LEO, I'm rethinking all my posititions.

SouthCentral

[angus]

Originally Posted by SouthCentral

I bought an hour of a PA criminal defence lawyer's time last week to get a briefing on PA self defence issues. I specifically asked about handing an LEO my LTCF with my PA drivers license if stopped for a traffic violation. He told me an officer may not ask you without probable cause and recomended I keep my mouth shut. He further said that if he/she asks the question, "Do you have anything in here I should know about?" you may answer with something like "You know I don't have to answer that question.". The lawyer also said you should never lie to an LEO. As I told the him, I don't know how I'll respond to the "...anything I should know about?" question. I have NRA, IDPA and USPSA stickers on my back window (a little truck) which my pro 2nd Amendment friends say is an open invitation for an LEO to ask. Beside simply not lying to an LEO, I'm rethinking all my posititions.

SouthCentral

Well, a lawyer told you this and I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me like saying "I don't have to answer that question" will raise some kind of red flag with the LEO. Cops might take that as some kind of affront or game playing, and then they have within their discretion the power to get hypertechnical on minor vehicle problems (eg license plate light is out or tires are borderline bald). Or they can write you a ticket for the full speed over the limit you were doing instead of cutting you a break on it. Or they can take extra long to process your citation and take more time out of your day.

Why not either answer "No," which is truthful, since we do not have the duty to inform in PA? Or answer, "I have a license to carry firearms in this commonwealth and am currently exercising that right- what would you like me to do? It's at 3o'clock, right hip"?

Some feel that to inform without being specifically requested is a bad idea, and I understand that line of thinking. Some feel that informing right away is a good idea, and I understand that as well. Depends on the individual circumstances and one's own posture towards sharing information with the formal agents of social control.

Either option is legal and truthful. Why play roadside lawyer in that circumstance? That response may be legally correct, but one-on-one police-citizen interactions on the roadside often come down to the tone of the exchange, attitude, police discretion, officer safety, and some cop's version of probable cause.

[larrymeyer]

I would think that answer would land you in handcuffs as the LEO would become even more suspicious. And then go for a search probable cause your evasive answer. To him your concealing something and the cuffs would be for his protection.

AS Angus posted in the start of this post

:
§6122. Proof of License and Exception.

(a) General rule.-When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a ve*hicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to provide such license, either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing, shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.-An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried with*out a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory ev*idence of qualification for exception.(Chgd. by 1.1997, Act 5(l), eff. 6/21/97.)


I think your lawyer maybe wrong

[gnbrotz]

And again....

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

The section you quoted states that you must produce a LTCF upon demand, NOT inform you are armed upon demand.

[tes151]

Originally Posted by gbrown221

to gnbrotz:

I would love to organize a large open carry in Phila.

One person openly carrying will probably get arrested in Phila.

greg

And a bunch of open carriers would probably have the SWAT team jumping through their asses.

[angus]

Do LEO's in PA even ask if there's "anything I should know about?" on traffic stops? I mean as a rule-- is that a standard question?

[gbrown221]

to tes151

since the case law for open carry is specific to a philadelphia case --- do you honestly think the SWAT team would come after an entire group.

I am going to attempt to write the new commisioner and see what his view on OC is.

I am new to LTCF either CCW or OC, but it only makes sense to OC., but as I indicated before I do not have the funds again to attmept to fight City Hall (phila PA and their arsenal of attorneys)

Greg

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by gbrown221

...I am going to attempt to write the new commisioner and see what his view on OC is.

Sometimes it is better to inform rather than ask:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...nal-draft.html