What do you carry Factory or Handloads

[GRIZZLYBEAR]

Not to hijack Keystone thread--but I noted that several forum members stated that they didn't practice with the ammunition that they carry. Because of the expense involved. In my opinion this is NOT the best training they can do.

My carry ammunition and practice ammo are the same---handloads:

Many shooters who reload ask about the best recipes for self-defense loads for use in their carry guns. Certain defensive-shooting writers, I am not going to name them (everyone who reads the gun rags knows who they are), advise against using any handloaded ammunition for this purpose. They claim a prosecutor demonizing the shooter for wanting to craft special ammo even deadlier and with more maiming ability than what the factories produce. The single exception (this was listed by Ayoob) was for someone who needed a defensive load in a powerful, deep-penetrating caliber like the .44 Magnum. To avoid overpenetration and injuring others with a shoot-through, a less-powerful loading than factory fodder might be appropriate.

The instance of a prosecutor going after a citizen for using handloads in a defensive shooting has not actually happened anywhere that anyone can document.

There is one area where handloads have caused problems for investigators, and ironically it is mild loads like the kind mentioned above that are most likely to get the shooter in trouble. This is in those cases where there's a serious dispute about how far away the shooter was from the shootee when he pulled the trigger. Forensic experts can pin this distance down very accurately if they have the gun used and identical factory ammo. Because of your light load, the residue on the clothing of the dead and wounded is almost undetectable, similar to what a factory magnum load would generate at, say, 20 feet. Handloads, though, can vary widely depending on powder type and pressure level. Obviously, if forensics have samples of identical ammo, like the unfired rounds still in your gun, there should be no problem.

A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force by creating extra-powerful handloads is an imaginative "what if" that has never actually happened in a courtroom. A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force because he shot someone who was far enough away that he was not an immediate threat is a very real argument that has been presented to juries on many occasions.

Having said that, realize that I mainly carry a .44 Magnum S&W and have for 28 years. I have NEVER carried factory ammo. My load of choice for the 29 is a full power load using a 275 grain, 3/4 jacket semiwadcutter hollow point that expands violently. I am revising my thinking for the much lighter 329 (which I love.) I'm leaning towards a full wadcutter out of soft lead at 1000-ish.

Another added benefit to carrying handloads is you can practice with what you carry.

These are my observations and what I carry.I am NOT recommending or endorsing the carry of Handloaded ammunition for anyone.

This works for me.

grizz

[aubie515]

Mr Grizz,

I would just caution you about carrying reloads because of the legal issues. I have always heard for my LE buddies that one shouldn't carry reloads because the civil attorney would say that you loaded the ammunitioin intended to KILL. I'm sure some would have valid arguments for carrying reloads. For me, I will only carry factory ammo...that way my defense attorney can argue that I'm only carrying what LE issues to their police officers.

[GRIZZLYBEAR]

Originally Posted by aubie515

Mr Grizz,

I would just caution you about carrying reloads because of the legal issues. I have always heard for my LE buddies that one shouldn't carry reloads because the civil attorney would say that you loaded the ammunitioin intended to KILL. I'm sure some would have valid arguments for carrying reloads. For me, I will only carry factory ammo...that way my defense attorney can argue that I'm only carrying what LE issues to their police officers.

aubie:

Note I said this NOT a recommendation. I DO NOT recommend carrying of handload for anyone.

(!) What criminal issues? Your LE buddies told you not to carry reloads because of the civil attorneys would say that you loaded the ammunition intended to KILL.
I don't shoot to kill--I shoot to STOP!!

(2) As far the civil attorney goes: You have to use your firearm to defend yourself or family, you are headed for civil court.

(3) I carry a .44 Magnum and my reloads are to prevent overpentration--I am looking out for the bystanders by having no overpentration.

(4) Just because a LE is forced to carry a specific firearm or loading doesn't make it the best possible choice. Those decisions are made by the politicans.
The FBI and the 10mm is a recent LE foal up on both the loads and firearm. So what did they do---they downloaded the 10mm and got the .40 S&W (Short & Weak).

grizz

[JDshoots]

I had heard a similar reccomendation for carrying what LE carries, so what does LE carry? I assume they are all different across PA, but is there a most commonly used ammo for most of LE?

Thanks,
JD

[MiniDevil]

Always carry FACTORY LEO AMMO!

There was a case (If you want I can dig and pull it up) where a guy fired a JHP round and killed a guy in self defense, and the jury was disgusted that 'someone made a bullet that gets big and almost shreds inside someone' as if it was cruel and unusual.

Not to mention the LEO is every bit as reliable. They actually weigh every round on an assembly line (as far as Federal's production goes) Which is why I can't find any more boxes of HST or EFMJ

[avizpls]

I carry Gold Dots exclusivly in any and all handguns.

[FRISteve]

Ayoob and I do not agree on darn near anything, but....

Remember - the rules in a civil trial are different than a criminal trial as is the burden of proof. The latter is my concern when talking about carrying handloads.

[GRIZZLYBEAR]

[quote=MiniDevil;14165]Always carry FACTORY LEO AMMO!

There was a case (If you want I can dig and pull it up) where a guy fired a JHP round and killed a guy in self defense, and the jury was disgusted that 'someone made a bullet that gets big and almost shreds inside someone' as if it was cruel and unusual.

GEE that sound to me a lot like what LE hollowpoint ammunition does....

Wonder if the person in charge was carrying what the LEO carrys.

Please give a link for that one....


grizz

[Steve in PA]

I carry factory Federal ammo, because I am a police officer and this is what I am issued.

I am also a reloader, and when I retire I will carry my reloads.

The belief that some lawyer will make you look like a crazed killer because you used reloaded ammo is 100% pure bunk.

When you are justified in using deadly force to protect yourself it doesn't matter if you use factory, reloads, a knife, rock, brick, spear gun or a bazooka. What I use is irrelevant, as long as I was justified in using what I did. Hell I can run you over with my car if your standing in front of it pointing a gun at me.

"But you made your handgun ammo soooo much more powerful than factory handgun ammo!"

Hmmm.......so I guess if I used vastly more powerful rifle or shotgun you'd be coming after me for using that?

I have debated Massad Ayoob over on GT about this issue. There is not one case where handloaded ammo was at issue.

Ayoob will state there is one, where a guy had reloads in his handgun and his wife was shot, or something like that. The man said he was "x" feet away from his wife, but this couldn't be backed up because of his reloaded ammo. There was no base line to do ballistics.

Ayoob also claimed that a lawyer will not let you enter your other reloaded ammo into evidence, arguing that you "created" evidence.

I believe the shooters story stunk to high heaven and in the end the fact that he had reloads didn't even matter.

Big deal, so did the factory. The factory keeps a sample of the ammo they make. Fine, I'll load up a box and set it aside. How is my ammo now different from the factory?

If my reloads were "made to kill" what was factory ammo made to do, hurt just a little bit????

I will set a factory round on the table next to one of my reloads and have the lawyer try and tell me which is which.

What if I used a black powder handgun? There is no "factory ammo".

If he wants to bring up the fact that by making my own ammo I'm now a crazed killer, he better be able to back it up with something better.

A lawyer say because you go to the range every week, because you fired 10k rounds this year, because you read Guns & Ammo, because you belong to gun boards your a danger to society, yadda-yadda.

Carry whatever you feel comfortable with.

[FRISteve]

Oh yeah - I carry and recommend Golden Saber in 9x19 & .40S&W. I recommend Gold Dot in .45acp.

I could ask the original poster why he carries a .44magnum, but that's for another time.