Limerick Township Violates Preemption!?

[billamj]

Originally Posted by FRISteve

Are you suggesting that it is illegal to carry on campus at (say) PSU?

What I am saying is not that it is illegal but that the school leadership has deemed that it is inappropriate and that if you do not fall in line with their "authorized" group of carriers they will request that you leave campus. If you decide to not leave campus they have every right to call the police and have you forcibly removed for violating their firearms policies. Additionally the vast majority of our state institutions of higher learning have declared all campus buildings, to include dormitories, as gun free zones meaning that if you bring a firearm into their area they have the right to have you removed and if you are a student they will kick you out. There is no law, there are rules.

[billamj]

Originally Posted by FRISteve

I was asking billamj, who said that it was illegal.

I did NOT say that it was illegal, I said that private property laws allowed them to create the rules that say there are no firearms allowed on campus, etc., etc. Please re-read the post.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by billamj

Unfortunately I'm not so sure of that Frenchy. State colleges and universities are paid for with tax dollars and they are able to ban firearms using the private property laws. Thats why I said it will be interesting to find out how this turns out.

You can not claim as private a place you invite the public to, IE: a restaurant is a public building, even if privately owned, it has a public licence. To say you reserve the right to allow only a certain group is to make it private, meaning every one must then fall in that category, IE: Womans club, but you can not say All white womans club. Lawyers club, Police club, military Club and so on, then the building is known a private even if it has a "store front"
Many gun clubs are private, some are public. If you hold an open house during a sale, you open your home to the public, you lose the privelage to say this is a private home during the time you specify it is open to the public.

Other examples would be a public boat like the Gateway Clipper, does not make every boat public, you could hire the same boat for a private cruise, giving you the right, not the owner to say who can and can not be on it. IE: a hotel/motel is a public area, the room you rent is private during the time of your stay. Stores are public, no store can claim to be private unless they have a membership. At this time, it is still public, but to keep the membership, you may have to follow "rules".
In general a public area is any where where the general public can enter with out question, where as a private place is a place you need an "Private" invitation to enter. Examples of this are RSVP at a company function, because the "company" reserved the seats, even if in a public restaurant, they can govern how their employees will conduct themselves there. If you choose to go to the same restaurant and not sit in the reserved areas for the employees, you do not have to concern yourself with the RSVP or rules of the company as long as there is public area in the place. Example of this, my company is having a party at a local hotel in downtown pittsburgh, My wife sent in a RSVP, meaning she will have to agree to company policy, but seeing I work till 11, it would of been silly for me to go RSVP, i will go when i finish work, and not have to worry about any company policy. I will enter as general public.

An other good example, One of the members here said he works for Lowes, they are not allowed to have knives of any sort, no leatherman, no sharp object, box cutter, scisor, but as a client you could have all of these and a gun on your blet and the managment would not question it. Employees have to keep their jobs, they have a rule book, the client has no such rule because it is a public area to them. Mind you, If the manager was to invite you to the "staff" only area, you would then have to comply with his demands to disarm before entering that area. The offices are not open to the public, they are private.

[JayBell]

private property owners that open thier locations to public access are absolutely able to limit the activity and behavior on that property.

same goes for schools and other "public" owned buildings and properties.

TWP and local govts can absolutely own "private" land thats not open to public use, and have the ability to fully control the use of "public lands" in how and when they can be used.

try using the police station as a unscheduled meeting place, or the township hall to have a unscheduled dance competition.
Heck, try and go hang out at the local govts ANYTHING and see what happens when you dont have an invitation

businesses/govts just aren't allowed to discriminate against protected classes of people.

businesses/malls/schools/govt/etc cannot say "No handicapped/blacks/asians/etc"

a non publicly accessible private home CAN....unless you are renting...

busineses/govts can absolutely say "no guns/alcohol/drugs" "shoes shirt required", "no public restroom" etc etc.

a privately owned home can, also while renting.

publicly accessible private property does not abrogate the rights of the owners to limit access, or control the behavior of those who use it.

the "open house" scenario you gave is improper.
the house is open to prospective buyers to see the house for the reason of examination of possible purchase, not any other reason.

you cant show up and hold a barbque, or to just use the toilet, or park in the yard, or such, and the "open house" owners absolutely have the right to kick someone out and off the land for any reason, stated or not stated.

this is why i mentioned that this string needs the attention of a lawyer, as there are a great many legal precepts thats involves this subject, definitions of what is private, public, publicly owned, and what rights the folks that control these areas can and cannot say what goes on in the use of these properties.


I'm in no way saying that the TWPs are out of line saying "no guns", as i think they are, but thers more to the public property owners rights than just "ok, you guys can do anything you want".


but, again, as I AM carrying concealed....rather get a $600 fine and have a successfully defended against robbery and/or murder than not.

[Frenchy]

private property owners that open thier locations to public access are absolutely able to limit the activity and behavior on that property.

Within the law, If you have an “open” house, I can conceal carry in it, you have no right to ask me if I am or not carrying a gun, same as you have no right to ask me my sexual, religious beliefs”

same goes for schools and other "public" owned buildings and properties.

Wrong, as long as you have a right to carry a concealed weapon, the school has no reason to throw you out unless you have a signed agreement with them, they can not overthrow the government laws, and can make no rules that affect the general public. Furthermore, as they are not officers of the law, and as they have no power to enforce laws, they have no right to ask you if you are carrying.

TWP and local govts can absolutely own "private" land thats not open to public use, and have the ability to fully control the use of "public lands" in how and when they can be used.

No government can “own” private land, they can declare part of a building private to staff members, but must have a public area for the general public to assemble, even if this is a lobby. The city or local government is strictly a manager of property, not the owner.

try using the police station as a unscheduled meeting place, or the township hall to have a unscheduled dance competition.

I go to pay a ticket, I meet my neighbor in the lobby, we decide to talk, no one will tell us to get out of there, it is public property, In an office, the authorities or person who works in that office can claim private area, but not in the public spaces

Heck, try and go hang out at the local govts ANYTHING and see what happens when you dont have an invitation

You would be surprised how often people actually do that. I wrote up most of my resident papers in public government lobbies and public spaces.

businesses/govts just aren't allowed to discriminate against protected classes of people.

remove the "just" and this is perfectly correct.

businesses/malls/schools/govt/etc cannot say "No handicapped/blacks/asians/etc"

or to any law abiding person.

busineses/govts can absolutely say "no guns/alcohol/drugs" "shoes shirt required", "no public restroom" etc etc.

Business can in their private area, not in the public areas, say any thing that differs from law, Obviously as drugs are illegal, they can say they will not tolerate drugs in their building, but they can not say you can not carry. This is why many business have gone to locked doors and invite clients only where they can govern what happens inside with rules. But if the doors are open to the public, then you fall under public laws.

a privately owned home can, also while renting.

A renter can do as he will within the law in a home, he may not restructure the building with out permission, but he can certainly own and store guns as long as his rent is paid in full. It then becomes his private area and he has the right to say what can and can not be done there. Many landlords say no cats, no dogs, no smoking… by law they have no right to limit the prospective renter from these as they are not illegal to have or do. Mind you the renter is liable for any damage to the home.

publicly accessible private property does not abrogate the rights of the owners to limit access, or control the behavior of those who use it.

Again within the law.

the "open house" scenario you gave is improper.

the house is open to prospective buyers to see the house for the reason of examination of possible purchase, not any other reason.

Open house is not limited to homes, and is notalways for the sole purpose of selling a home, it could be a contest in decoration, a showing of arts, a home business, a school event.. there are many types of “open house”.

you cant show up and hold a barbque, or to just use the toilet, or park in the yard, or such, and the "open house" owners absolutely have the right to kick someone out and off the land for any reason, stated or not stated.

Hold an open house and “throw” people out for no legal reason and see how fast you have legal problems.

this is why i mentioned that this string needs the attention of a lawyer, as there are a great many legal precepts thats involves this subject, definitions of what is private, public, publicly owned, and what rights the folks that control these areas can and cannot say what goes on in the use of these properties.

Thisi s a given, any thing taken on the internet should be checked for legal advice.

I'm in no way saying that the TWPs are out of line saying "no guns", as i think they are, but thers more to the public property owners rights than just "ok, you guys can do anything you want".

again within the law, this is the concept you have to remember, they can limit your speed, say you need to follow laws, but they can not make a law that is stronger then the federal law, in this case, the right to carry arms.

but, again, as I AM carrying concealed....rather get a $600 fine and have a successfully defended against robbery and/or murder than not.

That sums it all up! But we tend to tolerate being pushed around, and being told things by officials because after all they are right! Or at least we think they are…

I may not be a lawyer, but as i can not afford to break laws, mainly not one of this magnitude, i tend to research the info more then the average person. As for the renter part, I actually have gone through this as my past landlord did not "permit" guns and dogs in "his" house, took 5 minutes and a small lawyer fee to show him that unless I did not pay the rent, he could not make the rules of my house. All he could do is make me pay for any damage that is not normal wear and tear of any home.

[kimbershooter]

An other good example, One of the members here said he works for Lowes, they are not allowed to have knives of any sort, no leatherman, no sharp object, box cutter, scisor, but as a client you could have all of these and a gun on your blet and the managment would not question it. Employees have to keep their jobs, they have a rule book, the client has no such rule because it is a public area to them. Mind you, If the manager was to invite you to the "staff" only area, you would then have to comply with his demands to disarm before entering that area. The offices are not open to the public, they are private.

I worked at Lowes some years ago and remember a day when a customer came to the store with concealed gun that someone had seen and told a employee about, he was removed from the store and the police were called. I am didn't agreeing with how they handled the situation since they have nothing posted at the entrance of the store. I carry in the store when I happen to go there.

[exceltoexcel]

There is no need to bicker about it, The law says they can't pass a law prohibiting possession. Doesn't matter if it is incorporated "Private land" they still cant pass a law forbidding it. The only thing they could do, if they successfully argue its private, is ask you to leave.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

You can not claim as private a place you invite the public to, IE: a restaurant is a public building, even if privately owned, it has a public licence.

I don't think this is accurate Frenchy. I wish you were right and this was the case, but I don't think it is.

1st off, anyone has a right to ask anyone anything. It may not be ethical, proper, or polite, but they have the right. You can lie about it, but they can ask.

2nd, a property owner, regardless of whether it's for public use or not, has the right to ask anyone to leave their property for any reason.

If what you were saying was true, then a patron who's carrying at a restaurant could stay and eat ever after being asked to leave by the owner/management due to carrying, which isn't the case. The patron can be arrested for trespassing if they don't leave after being asked.

I see your point regarding Lowes and employees vs. patrons, but my guess (and I'm admitting this is conjecture here people) is that the rules regarding weapons of any type apply to both employee and patron. They most likely just don't enforce it with patrons because they don't want to potentially lose a sale. They do have the right to ask a patron to leave for ANY reason.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

I don't think this is accurate Frenchy. I wish you were right and this was the case, but I don't think it is.

1st off, anyone has a right to ask anyone anything. It may not be ethical, proper, or polite, but they have the right. You can lie about it, but they can ask.

2nd, a property owner, regardless of whether it's for public use or not, has the right to ask anyone to leave their property for any reason.

If what you were saying was true, then a patron who's carrying at a restaurant could stay and eat ever after being asked to leave by the owner/management due to carrying, which isn't the case. The patron can be arrested for trespassing if they don't leave after being asked.

I see your point regarding Lowes and employees vs. patrons, but my guess (and I'm admitting this is conjecture here people) is that the rules regarding weapons of any type apply to both employee and patron. They most likely just don't enforce it with patrons because they don't want to potentially lose a sale. They do have the right to ask a patron to leave for ANY reason.

Ill say it one more time, "For any legal reason" If you are open to the public, then you have to accept the public, be they a minority, a religious group, or gun owners, if they do nothing wrong, you can not just show them the door just because you dont "like" them... If they disturb the establishment, then you could ask them to leave.

Try to imagine this, If you throw out some one, and they come back saying you "discriminated" them. You have no legal grounds for throwing them out, once they are out, you have no "proof' of them carrying illegally or legally for that matter, they are concealed. I for one would say I was thrown out because I was French. Discrimination... Blacks would say because they are black, Italiand because they are Italians, who could not come up with a reason to say there was "discrimination" and it had nothing to do with what the "proprietor" claims. You could even claim discrimination because you where carrying a gun legally! Places off-limits while carrying in PA.
By law, you are allowed to carry in a restaurant, bar or store in PA. Unless you are in a place that is specifically stated in the law you may not carry, you can not be thrown out with out just cause, it would fall under discrimination.

You might throw a street bum or homeless person out with out being questioned but throw a respectable person out because they carry and it will hit the news fast. Look up how many carry permits there are in PA, then add a few visitors from other states that also carry here legally every day, and tell me all these people dont eat out or go in "public" places. If you throw one person out for "concealed" carry, you would have to search every one That could be a lot of people!
As for asking if you have a gun on you. Pa law says you do not have to say to a police officer you are concealing if you have the permit, what gives average joe the right to ask? Sure they can ask, but you can look them in the eye and ask them on what authority they ask this.
Must inform Law Enforcement when Carrying NO

http://www.packing.org/state/pennsyl...fy_officer_law

CCW LIMITS
May police limit carrying concealed handguns? No
State law forces police chiefs and state sheriffs to give concealed carry permits (CCW) to anyone who can buy a handgun, allowing them to carry loaded, concealed handguns in public (known as �shall issue�). Police may not even require safety training in the legal or safe use of weapons for CCW applicants. State law allows residents of some other states to carry concealed weapons in this state without informing local police.
Found on a page that says we should not carry.. http://www.bradycampaign.org/legisla....php?st=pa#ccw

Another argument concerns restricting places where carrying is permitted. Some laws prohibit carriage on school premises or in drinking establishments, others restrict carrying at public accommodations (theaters, concert halls, courtrooms) or public events (polling places, State Fairs). Concealed-carry opponents generally make no distinction between drinking establishments and restaurants where alcohol is sold. Some states make this distinction. For example, in Texas, one may not carry in any establishment which generates 51% or more of its revenue from the sale of alcohol for on-premises consumption. In Florida, one may carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol, but not into the bar area. Virginia prohibits concealed-carry in businesses with a liquor license, but open-carry is permitted. Pennsylvania does not prohibit carry in any establishment, whether it be a family restaurant, bar, or club.

http://www.answers.com/topic/carrying-concealed-weapon

As was said in this post

Re: Limerick Township Violates Preemption!?
There is no need to bicker about it, The law says they can't pass a law prohibiting possession. Doesn't matter if it is incorporated "Private land" they still cant pass a law forbidding it.

the law is the law, why are you not trying to understand it rather then undermine it? How do you expect the general public who may not like gun ownership or the right to own and bear arms to understand it or even approuve of it if you, as a law abiding citizen who owns guns in PA. and may even have a CCW, cant accept the facts of the law yourself?

Yes you may show some one out your "public" property if you have LEGAL grounds to do so, but you can not make a law or rule that is not in allignment with laws of the land, otherwise you would see millions of bars that "allowed" drugs in them, and the police would have no say in it. Public establishments MUST follow the law, they can try like any one else to tell you they have a "right' to do some thing, but then they would not be public, they would be "Private".
A private building or club can tell you how to dress, how to eat, how to drink. They can have rules and regulations and they can enforce them by showing you to the door, if you do not comply or charge you with "trespassing" because you are no longer an "invited" guest (member). However, they still cant make a rule that would be contrary to the law of the land. IE: say they allow drug usage there.

Sam's club could show you out the door for having failed a paiment or bounced a check or not met with their rules and regulations, walmart could not unless you do some thing that is against the law. (or naturally its closing time) One is private, the other is not. You can not sit in a public building with out cause for a long period of time because there are loitering laws that protect that, but as long as you are legal, not breaking any laws and in the building for a purpose, no one can "legally" throw you out.

[exceltoexcel]

I'm confused, I'm not trying to undermine the law of preemption.

I'm fighting to uphold it!

Limerick township can't pass a law regarding firearms, period.

They did just that.

It's illegal, doesn't matter if they make a law that says you can throw someone out of your own home if they are carrying a gun, which is a state given right anyway.

Limerick still can't pass a law that says anything about gun possession.