So I'm a little confused about LEO's and my rights....

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

And I KNOW that we've talked about this before, but I dunno how/what I'd put in the search function...

1.) I'm OC'ing on foot either in store or on the sidewalk. Cop approaches and starts asking all sorts of questions. If he asks "Do you have a LTCF? Present it to me."
Do I have to? My gut would be to yes, comply. This questioning is petty and vague.

2.) Cop approaches me and asks for any ID. What do I give him? Am I required to comply and hand over my ID? I remember the kick-ass quote regarding wanting to cooperate yet not consenting to search & seizure without a probable cause.

3.) and If I choose to not comply....is there a "LEO friendly" way of doing it? "Officer, I'm carrying because I have a valid LTCF for protection. I've done nothing wrong. My I go about my business Officer?"

Is that OK?

I don't wanna just lay down and give up. Yet I want to respectfully and tactfully stand my ground and affirm my rights.

[rwilson452]

Without getting into a long discussion on what constitutes a legal "Terry Stop" Once stopped you are required to tender ID when asked. If your in the city of Filthydelphia you need a LTCF to carry OC or CC. Outside of Philly you don't need one to carry while walking. After tendering ID if the LEO ask for your LTCF. Say something to the effect. I don't think I need one to open carry do I officer? If he says yes. Ask him to show you the law and present your LTCF. Should you have one of those Opencarry. org pamphlets on you you might give him one. You might point out the Ortiz vs the Commonwealth and section 5301 to him in it. I suspect it will pin his/her ears back a bit. BTW don't lie to the LEO that will get you in deep doo-doo.

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

And I KNOW that we've talked about this before, but I dunno how/what I'd put in the search function...

1.) I'm OC'ing on foot either in store or on the sidewalk. Cop approaches and starts asking all sorts of questions. If he asks "Do you have a LTCF? Present it to me."
Do I have to? My gut would be to yes, comply. This questioning is petty and vague.

2.) Cop approaches me and asks for any ID. What do I give him? Am I required to comply and hand over my ID? I remember the kick-ass quote regarding wanting to cooperate yet not consenting to search & seizure without a probable cause.

3.) and If I choose to not comply....is there a "LEO friendly" way of doing it? "Officer, I'm carrying because I have a valid LTCF for protection. I've done nothing wrong. My I go about my business Officer?"

Is that OK?

I don't wanna just lay down and give up. Yet I want to respectfully and tactfully stand my ground and affirm my rights.

[imperialism2024]

Well, presuming that you have a LTCF...

I'd say something along the lines of, "Officer, I will provide you with my LTCF in the interests of cooperating with you, but according to the law I do not need to do so."

Afterward, I would write a letter to the local police chief or sheriff, and send it certified with restricted delivery. If an incident happens again more than a few days after the letter is received, I would refuse to show the LTCF or Driver's License and just provide the legal minimum, as that police department should be aware of the law by then.

While I'm a diehard supporter of supporting our rights, I'd give the benefit of the doubt... the first time.

[Wynder]

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

1.) I'm OC'ing on foot either in store or on the sidewalk. Cop approaches and starts asking all sorts of questions. If he asks "Do you have a LTCF? Present it to me." Do I have to? My gut would be to yes, comply. This questioning is petty and vague.

First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

If you are not concealing, there is no reason to show a license. The same way you are not required to have a driver's license if you're not driving a car. Let him know you're not concealing the weapon and no permit is required for open carry of a firearm.

2.) Cop approaches me and asks for any ID. What do I give him? Am I required to comply and hand over my ID? I remember the kick-ass quote regarding wanting to cooperate yet not consenting to search & seizure without a probable cause.

First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

Pennsylvania does not have a stop and identify statute. However, if the officer IS detaining you, it's because he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you have, are in the process of, or are about to commit a crime, so I'd offer him your name, address and business abroad. You are not required to carry your 'papers' around with you and you *shouldn't* be required to provide any kind of physical ID -- verbal should be fine...

The quote was, "Officer, I am not resisting, but I do not consent to any search." Probably from the ACLU's "Busted" video.

3.) and If I choose to not comply....is there a "LEO friendly" way of doing it? "Officer, I'm carrying because I have a valid LTCF for protection. I've done nothing wrong. My I go about my business Officer?"

First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

See a recurring theme here? ;p If he has no RAS, you're free to leave or ignore his questions.

[brewguy]

somehow I see all this ending with a taser..

Originally Posted by Wynder

First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

If you are not concealing, there is no reason to show a license. The same way you are not required to have a driver's license if you're not driving a car. Let him know you're not concealing the weapon and no permit is required for open carry of a firearm.



First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

Pennsylvania does not have a stop and identify statute. However, if the officer IS detaining you, it's because he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you have, are in the process of, or are about to commit a crime, so I'd offer him your name, address and business abroad. You are not required to carry your 'papers' around with you and you *shouldn't* be required to provide any kind of physical ID -- verbal should be fine...

The quote was, "Officer, I am not resisting, but I do not consent to any search." Probably from the ACLU's "Busted" video.



First thing is ask, "Am I free to leave?". If he says no, "Am I being detained?" Continue to ask until he either says you're free to leave (walk away) or you're being detained.

See a recurring theme here? ;p If he has no RAS, you're free to leave or ignore his questions.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

GREAT POST Wynder!

Thanks.


But......I dunno what RAS means.

[XD45]

my .02 is.. I dont know every single law and case log about these situations. So I would tell the officer something along the lines of I object to being held against my will and am asking to leave, but if you choose to hold me against my will I will be cooperative but know I do not consent to anything and will be filing a formal complaint. IMO spouting something like that off the officer is gonna go huh, and be a bit more careful with you.

[Wynder]

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

GREAT POST Wynder!

Thanks.


But......I dunno what RAS means.

Reasonable articulable suspicion. It's what's required to detain you, as opposed to probably cause which is what's required to arrest you.

[Wynder]

Originally Posted by brewguy

somehow I see all this ending with a taser..

Then check this out: http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploa...int08JAN08.wmv

[jrbib24]

Originally Posted by brewguy

somehow I see all this ending with a taser..

As long as you don't say "Don't tase me, Dude!" you should be all right.