Pa law question: Re; parent to child transfer

[homefront]

My mom has an auto pistol for home defense purposes. She sometime calls me with questions about the mag/slide/slide release/safety/loaded chamber indicator etc. She gets confused, and I'm concerned that the gun is not useful to her should she need it. I would like to trade her for one of my .38 revolvers, which I know she'd do well with, but I'm not sure if paperwork is required (I believe she could gift a handgun to me, but does it work in reverse?). Also, would it be legal or prudent for me to lend her a revolver?

[Pa. Patriot]

Parent to child (and visa versa) are legal in PA and no transfer required. This essentially supercedes the need to "loan" to your mother. But I've included the relevant law on lending below also fyi.
{§6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.}

§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.
--snip--
(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed
importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or
transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only
upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer,
dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall
follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the
seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not
apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a
parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and
grandchild.

--snip

Loans are legal if the recipient has a PA LTCF.
{ §6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.}

§ 6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.
(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured
by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as
provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a
firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to
the provisions of this subchapter.
(b) Exception.--
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the
following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed
to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to
licenses).
---SNIP

[knight0334]

Parent to child = no paperwork needed. Just trade guns, give mom a hug, and be happy.

Yes, you can "lend" her a gun. Since transfers between parent and child, grandparent and grandchild, and spouse to spouse require no paperwork - there is no need to differentiate between a transfer or a lend/loaned firearm with the lawfully exempted paperwork transfer.. The moment of possession would be legal, the only concession would be civil if she didn't want to give it back.

You could lend each other firearms at will, back and forth, calling them "trades", "transfers" or "gifts".

[homefront]

Gentlemen and scholars, all!

Thanks for the education. I knew this was the right place to ask.

[sharontony]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Parent to child (and visa versa) are legal in PA and no transfer required. This essentially supercedes the need to "loan" to your mother. But I've included the relevant law on lending below also fyi.
{§6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.}



Loans are legal if the recipient has a PA LTCF.
{ §6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.}

What about a transfer between two unrelated persons? The first section you cite would seem to say that all such transfers go thru a FFL, but the second cited section seems to indicate there are exceptions. For example, one LTCF gives another LTCF a gun permanently, without use of an FFL. Would that be legal? Does it have to be a "gift" to be legal, or can the gun be "bought"?

[knight0334]

Originally Posted by sharontony

What about a transfer between two unrelated persons? The first section you cite would seem to say that all such transfers go thru a FFL, but the second cited section seems to indicate there are exceptions. For example, one LTCF gives another LTCF a gun permanently, without use of an FFL. Would that be legal? Does it have to be a "gift" to be legal, or can the gun be "bought"?

Anyone that isn't spouses, parent/child, or grandparent/grandchild has to transfer any handguns at a dealer or sheriff. The paperwork must be filled out, and a background check made. The only exception is the relations mentioned in the first sentence.

LTCF to LTCF holders can only do temporary loaning or lending of a "firearm".

If you want to give or sell your brother, your sister, your buddy "Joe", the bum on the street corner, or anyone not of close relations a handgun - it must be transfered at a dealer or sheriff. The type of transactions doesn't matter, whether gift, sold, or bartered - the act of transferring ownership is what matters.

[sharontony]

Thanks for the reply. But the law doesn't seem to hold much water. Since there is no "gun registry" and PSP is not permitted to keep a record of transfer requests, and FFL recordkeeping requirements obviously do not apply to individuals, hypothetically one could sell a gun to a friend without going thru an FFL, and years down the road if it somehow came back to them, there is no way to prove the transaction didn't happen "by the book". You might say the two would be asked to ID the FFL they went thru, but what if they don't recall? Not remembering isn't a crime, and you're innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. In short, there is no way to prove they didn't do things like the govt wants you to. Or, you could simply say it was a long-term loan permitted by section 6115; even if cash were exchanged, it could be considered a "rental fee", or if you swapped guns, a mutual long-term loan. Proving the intent to permanently transfer the gun under 6111 would be impossible. It may be semantics, but the letter of the law is critical in an issue like this; I'm sure many out there have swapped guns with friends or sold one privately to a friend (probably to sell on old gun for the latest whiz-bang gun!), with no criminal intent in mind. Years ago, I bought a S&W revolver from a friend (no FFL involved) then later sold it to an FFL so I could buy the Ruger he had, with no problems at all (in other words, when he was doing the transfer, no red lights went off saying I had never "properly" transferred it before). I'm not suggesting someone intentionally break the law, but we all make mistakes and it's nice to know there is some "wiggle" room. I guess the only thing I would add is that you should never sell a gun to someone you don't know personally without going thru an FFL; you don't want to sell one to a "prohibited" person.

[knight0334]

Originally Posted by sharontony

Thanks for the reply. But the law doesn't seem to hold much water. Since there is no "gun registry" and PSP is not permitted to keep a record of transfer requests, and FFL recordkeeping requirements obviously do not apply to individuals, hypothetically one could sell a gun to a friend without going thru an FFL, and years down the road if it somehow came back to them, there is no way to prove the transaction didn't happen "by the book". You might say the two would be asked to ID the FFL they went thru, but what if they don't recall? Not remembering isn't a crime, and you're innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. In short, there is no way to prove they didn't do things like the govt wants you to. Or, you could simply say it was a long-term loan permitted by section 6115; even if cash were exchanged, it could be considered a "rental fee", or if you swapped guns, a mutual long-term loan. Proving the intent to permanently transfer the gun under 6111 would be impossible. It may be semantics, but the letter of the law is critical in an issue like this; I'm sure many out there have swapped guns with friends or sold one privately to a friend (probably to sell on old gun for the latest whiz-bang gun!), with no criminal intent in mind. Years ago, I bought a S&W revolver from a friend (no FFL involved) then later sold it to an FFL so I could buy the Ruger he had, with no problems at all (in other words, when he was doing the transfer, no red lights went off saying I had never "properly" transferred it before). I'm not suggesting someone intentionally break the law, but we all make mistakes and it's nice to know there is some "wiggle" room. I guess the only thing I would add is that you should never sell a gun to someone you don't know personally without going thru an FFL; you don't want to sell one to a "prohibited" person.

Do not confuse the PICS call records(which they still keep record of even after a court order to stop) with the transfer form records, and dont fool yourself about them not keeping track of the guns transfered on those forms..

They do keep track of transfers of handguns on those forms and they can easily tell if it didn't go by the book. They have them on record back into the first half of the 20th century. If you were to sell your gun to a friend without going through a FFL or sheriff, and he/she were to come in contact with an LEO that decided to do a check on the serial # - you the seller could be up $hit creek without a paddle. The buyer has no worries, but the seller could face criminal charges. When the new "owner" sells it and does a lawful transfer - they only check out the new buyer. BUT, if they have the time - they could easily check the history of the serial number. ...if it didn't go by the book it is very possible facing charges even upto the statute of limitations after selling the gun to the friend.

[Xringshooter]

Sharontony,
You stated "...hypothetically one could sell a gun to a friend without going thru an FFL, and years down the road if it somehow came back to them, there is no way to prove the transaction didn't happen "by the book". You might say the two would be asked to ID the FFL they went thru, but what if they don't recall? Not remembering isn't a crime, and you're innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around..."

That's fine if you and the buddy remember your stories exactly. The police (or BATFE or someone else) probably won't be questioning you both at the same time. Most likely buddy would say "Oh, I got this from XYZ, x years ago." Police would say "what FFL did you go through?" By this time buddy is getting nervous, can't recall what you and he discussed and will probably tell the truth "Well, we didn't actually go through a FFL because XYZ said ***" then the SWHTF.

If you're going to do a long term loan, jot it down and you and buddy keep it with your other valuable papers. Then, if questioned, the note will show the details. If your going to sell it to buddy just go to a FFL and do that way, then there's less chance of problems in the future if something happens.

[loumarch]

All handgun transfers are traceable. All the local LE agency has to do is request a trace from the ATF and the gun will be traced from cradle to grave.

If you didn't transfer the gun legally the trace will end at you. Traces are done manually and start at the manufacturer, then go to the distributor, then to the original FFL and from there they follow the FFL's log book.