Pa law question: Re; parent to child transfer

[sharontony]

I appreciate the reponses, but there seems to be a lot of opinion but not a lot of facts. I read an interesting article at http://epic.org/privacy/firearms/ that specifically deals with privacy in firearms transfers. Long story short, the only long-term record keeping provisions I am aware of are the transfer/sale records created by an FFL when a transfer goes thru him/her. If down the road a person "can't remember" which FFL it went thru, there is nothing illegal about forgetting and it would be impossible to prove a person wrong, short of going thru the paper records of every FFL in every state going back years...impossible. I've swapped guns with close friends in the past (all cops, now that I think about it), and never went thru an FFL. I'm not advocating purposely doing something wrong, but if a person makes a mistake, I think the laws leave some wiggle room for that. Fortunately, the article I cited above provides some comforting information, explaining how even a transfer thru an FFL is well-protected information.

[knight0334]

We're not talking long guns, however pistols are kept track of. And what I have replied is fact.

The last person on records will be responsible legally.

When you buy a handgun or have one transfered thru a FFL in PA - a PA St. Police transfer record form is filled out. You get a copy, the St. Police get a copy, and I think the dealer keeps one too. We're not talking about the Federal 4473 form, but rather the SP 4 - 113 (2-2003) form labeled "Pennsylvania State Police, Application/Record of Sale".

The State Police then add the paper record to the computer database. If the new "owner" of the handgun isn't the person in the last record of the transfer for that gun - then the one on record will be liable criminally for not completing a lawful transfer. It doesn't matter whether that last person on record remembers or not, the paper and computer records do remember.

The only exceptions to the law are temporary loans/lending to LTCF bearers, transfers to the exempted family members, and I do believe there is exemption between LEO's too now.

If you dont believe me, there are at least two FFL's, a couple LEO's and a couple lawyers here on this site that will tell you the same thing.

[Steve in PA]

The only thing you can "swap" between friends are long guns; rifles & shotguns.

All handgun sales must go through an FFL, even if one or both parties are LEO's.

[GunLawyer001]

In their "registry that isn't a registry", the State Police can run a check by your name or by a gun's serial number. I've seen such reports generated in cases I've handled. Pop in a name, it spits out a list of every firearm purchased in your name through a PA FFL. Put in "Colt .45 Serial # 123456789", it will tell you the last time it passed through a PA FFL, and to whom.

So whatever comfort one might feel in believing that there is privacy regarding what guns one owns, and who owns a particular firearm, the fact remains that if a handgun was last transferred through an FFL to a PA resident, and it ends up in the hands of another PA resident, a presumption could exist that an unlawful transfer occurred. At the least, the latest owner would have a hard time getting it back from police if it were seized for any reason. At worst, the last listed owner could be investigated for an unlawful transfer; if it was recent, it would be more likely to be prosecuted as a straw purchase followed by an illegal transfer.

[Xringshooter]

Originally Posted by sharontony

...If down the road a person "can't remember" which FFL it went thru, there is nothing illegal about forgetting and it would be impossible to prove a person wrong, short of going thru the paper records of every FFL in every state going back years...impossible.... I'm not advocating purposely doing something wrong, but if a person makes a mistake, I think the laws leave some wiggle room for that....

To preface what I have written below: I have had my FFL since 1990. I have done business in 3 different states (I was in the USAF, now retired from the military). I have dealt with the BATFE and the DE SP, NJ SP, and the PSP, along with local PD's in all three places I've lived along with the Army MP and the USAF SP.

When it comes to guns that have been used in crimes the law doesn't really leave any wiggle room. Ask some LEO's.

I'm also not saying that it is illegal to forget what FFL you used but if the police do a trace on the gun used in a crime (not hard for them to do) it will go like this:
1. Manufacturer of Gun tells who it was sold to (distributor)
2. Distributor tells who it was sold to (retailer/FFL)
3. Retailer/FFL tells who it was sold to (buyer of record)
4. Police go to that buyer and ask to see the gun, buyer of record says that he sold it to a buddy. Police ask what is his/her name, what FFL did you use, etc. You say I don't remember what FFL we used. Police go to buddy and start questioning him/her. Find out you did not use FFL, come back to you and charge you with illegal transfer.
4. Police go to that buyer and ask to see the gun, buyer of record says that he sold it to a buddy. Police ask for name, buyer says he doesn't remember, doesn't remember the FFL who did the transfer. Police say that buyer better come up with a name(s) or they can charge the buyer with the crime because they were the last to own/possess the gun and then it would be up to the buyer to prove that he didn't do it. You prove you didn't commit the crime, police charge you with illegal transfer.
4. Police go to that buyer and ask to see the gun, buyer of record says that the gun was destroyed. Police say prove it, we have the gun in the evidence locker. Unless buyer can prove it was destroyed, the police can initially charge the buyer with the crime because the buyer was the last person to own/possess the gun.

There are many more scenerios (I didn't even get into if you say the gun was stolen). Just remember: The buyer of record, be it the first non FFL buyer or the 10th down the line, bears the burden of proof that everything was done correctly and legally.

As an FFL, I was involved with a similar scenerio. The PSP came to my business because that is where the trace led to. I showed who the gun was sold to (a good friend) and they went to him to ask a few questions. In this case, my friend still had the gun. The PSP reexamined the gun that they had in possession and found that the serial number had been altered. My friend and I both received a phone call from the detective explaining what they found and thanked us for cooperating with them. I never did find out if they caught the perp or not though.

The police do not routinely just trace a gun to see if everything has been done correctly. If it hasn't been used in a crime they have no reason to do a trace. Same with the BATFE. In most instances, you probably could just give it to your buddy and no one would know the difference. But why take the chance, the time involved and the cost to do a transfer is insignificant compared to the problems if you happen to be caught.

[GunLawyer001]

There is a lot of truth to what Xringshooter posted, particularly where ATF is the lead agency in an investigation. ATF uses the forward trace method if they have the gun in their possession, since they always know the manufacturer.

The PSP have the other option of using their database. The PSP has records of the intermediate transactions, so the PSP won't be stopped by a gap in the trail. If you say that you sold it to your buddy 10 years ago, and your buddy is now dead so he's not talking, the PSP will still be able to find out if your buddy re-sold it via any FFL in the Commonwealth, or if ANYONE ever resold it via an FFL.

There's also a Statute of Limitations that applies to unlawful transfers, but that's an affirmative defense that would require you to prove when the transfer happened. Your gun swap from 20 years ago is probably not a problem anymore, although you could still get a visit if it's found at a crime scene.

Finally, the burden of proof on establishing the illegality of a transfer remains with the prosecutor. He might be able to raise a presumption that the pistol you bought last year that is now in the possession of your neighbor was transferred unlawfully, if the PSP database has no record of if being transferred via an FFL, but under this statute you are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Still, the best security is always to stay within the letter of the law, instead of hoping that the government won't be able to prove your crimes. The government is often able to prove crimes, and for gun crimes your DA might be eager to give it a shot, and the expense of a good legal defense will bankrupt a lot of families.

[sharontony]

Thanks for all of the info, esp. from xringshooter and gunlawyer001. Lots of food for thought and frightening info about "Big Brother". Amazing how a simple thing like swapping guns with a relative or friend could make a law-abiding citizen into a criminal!

[Steve in PA]

"4. Police go to that buyer and ask to see the gun, buyer of record says that he sold it to a buddy. Police ask for name, buyer says he doesn't remember, doesn't remember the FFL who did the transfer. Police say that buyer better come up with a name(s) or they can charge the buyer with the crime because they were the last to own/possess the gun and then it would be up to the buyer to prove that he didn't do it. You prove you didn't commit the crime, police charge you with illegal transfer."

All good except this one. A person does NOT get charged with a crime because they merely owned the firearm used in a crime. There is no way someone gets charged with a crime that way. Thats like charging the owner of a vehicle because it was used in a crime. Well, it was recovered after a bank robbery, so you did it.

[PAhunter]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

....
There's also a Statute of Limitations that applies to unlawful transfers....

Having read through a few threads covering this topic in the past I do not recall anyone asking this question. What is the time frame we're talking here?
1 year, 5 years, I only ask from a curious standpoint.

Thanks, Jack