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November 27th, 2006, 12:37 AM #31
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
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November 27th, 2006, 12:42 AM #32
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
When I carry a 1911 it is in Condition 1. I have been doing it for a very many years. Never had an AD or ND. NEVER! Taking the the safey off when drawing to fire is reflex, I don't think about it I do it. If I draw it for any other reason where the intent is not to fire. I do need to think about not takeing the safety off. That is not reflex. Whenever I an going to remove my 1911 other than to shoot I stop, review what is to happen then perform the desired function. It's called training.
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November 27th, 2006, 12:44 AM #33Senior Member
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Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
a big +1 there.
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November 27th, 2006, 01:21 AM #34Banned
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Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
My apologies for the long post.
I respect your opinion and I understand the logic of it completely.
I'm going to rebut but not to lessen your rational at all, I agree completely with it, this is just to clarify mine.
First BUT NOT FOREMOST!
I can train all day long for years firing my weapons. I've fired over 3000 rounds through my SA-XD 9mm and I'm my own worse critic when it come to my own groupings but to be modest I know I'm fairly good at between 7 to 15 yards, I unfortunately wouldn't take the chance at at 25 yard target unless I was 100% in the zone or the firing area was 100% safe, say a brick wall. I know when I'm 100% sure I'm going to hit the target and I always do when I know it. So being comfortable with the gun isn't an issue for me at all. I'm comfortable enough with it that I have only reasonable concern (that I'll never nor should I lose) when carrying. I'm somewhat comfortable drawing my weapon and I practice it and intend on doing so until I'm completely comfortable drawing it and proficient enough at it to draw within a second or so. However I'll never be accustom to carrying the weapon out in public until I do it long enough! Sure I can practice carrying at home but it not even remotely the same as out in public. Basically I have to get time in with it. Now I could just carry it with snap caps until I'm comfortable but that seems even worse to me than with out one in the chamber. However most importantly my second reason...
Secondly I'm a black belt in Chang moo kwan TKD, been one since 1990 I have a brown belt in modern arnis. If the assailant is close enough to get to me before I can draw and pull the slide I'm not going for my gun, I'm not even going to pull my shirt up. At that distance I'm going to try to keep that distance other ways or make enough distance to pull the gun and yank the slide, if he gets closer I'm pulling out modern arnis ( a combination of small and large circle jujitsu aikido and other circular forms of martial arts etc..) I'd be a fool to think that my gun is going to out perform my own ingrained automatic abilities at that range, hell I'd probably forget about the gun all together. In that situation all that repetitive training is going to override anything new I've learned.
To add to that reasoning. I was trained for ten years to TAKE GUNS AWAY. At close range. I can modestly say that disarming an average person, in very close proximity, with a gun is way too easy. Now please everyone don't have a knee jerk reaction to that statement. The average joe isn't going to be all over you like a cheap suit, I trained three days a week for at least 5 minutes a day for ten years to do that. Unless the target has trained in gun retention they aren't going to hold it for long and I would prefer that they actually try to hold it! One I never actually touch the gun, so fire away slide moving back and all, The worse thing is the sound of the bullets. I'm trained to ignore it! Its not that I won't flinch I just won't let go of the targets hand while its going off. We did all sorts of drills with cap pistols, paint balls, even paint transfer from the fake gun. No paint on you when you take it away, except for where you are holding it in your hand once you've achieved it. If they hold on they end up on the ground or with a severely injured wrist and the gun dropping to the ground and/or getting pummeled from behind. Hey I'm not saying I'm going to try, I won't unless I have no choice. Since I learned this I know its a pretty damn hard thing to master (CQC) with a pistol even worse with a rifle.
Please note that It is damn near impossible to take away a knife from an EXPERIENCED knife fighter, better to move and strike until you've got a reasonable chance. In close quarters or even conventional fighting distance (I'm talking touching - kicking distance) I'm far more afraid of a knife than a gun. While I can't out maneuver a bullet I can sure out move a standard rate of acquisition unless they are hip shooting in which case I better be behind the guy before he gets it out of his holster anyway!
If you want advice about CQC either take a CQC stance, gun near face dominate arm back using your weak side eye or hip shoot, but you better be damn good or else you're going to be hitting things other than your target. I'm not hip shooting and I've trained CQC stance and I like it but I don't think my eardrums are going to like it. An outward push stance with a firearm in CQ will get you in serious dog poo with a trained person cause your going to end up shooting something other than your target and you'll end up on your arse.
Now please don't flip out over this post, I'm not trying to be a smart ass and I'm not trying to provoke anyone into thinking I'm bruce lee cause I'm not even remotely that good. However what I'm telling you is that even lackadaisical gun disarmament techniques work very well. Well actually I suspect that most schools don't fire a gun that makes noise so the sound of the shot alone might make someone lose control of the gun they just recently nearly acquired from you.
All of those life experiences tell me that I better have enough time to pull the slide back and that once I'm more comfortable I'll have even more time to shoot when I'm carrying with one in the chamber.
Please Note Again: I'm not saying martial arts knowledge is better than S&W only that my personal experience indicates that I'd personally be better off going hand to hand when the distance is slight. I'd encourage everyone here to at least look into a self defense course involving firearm disarmament and retention techniques. I'd love to hone my shooting skills to make the distance a non-issue but for now for me my MA is superior to my shooting skills at < 7 yards. Next up learning how to defend myself with a knife, however I have a feeling cutting someone up is harder to defend in court than shooting them.
I'd like to add that if you lose 50% of your training under pressure then you're not really fully trained, you just know what to do, to be fully trained it has to be programmed into your muscle memory.Last edited by whoshisface; November 27th, 2006 at 02:05 AM.
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November 27th, 2006, 09:33 AM #35
Martial Arts
If your not comfortable with a firearm, Don't carry, it's that simple. If you think your training in hand to hand is better than a pistol, don't carry. To compromise and not put one in the chamber is just going to slow you down. you will find that in real life, not the Dojo, that when things go down the drain it happens very fast. Not in seconds but in 1/10 of seconds. When the SHTF your going to wish you had it out already because you missed that cue that would have told you to bug out. How good are you when 4 or 5 armed thugs decide you need a tuneup because they like your shoes. Your correct, if a person is close enough you can take away the pistol without getting hurt. The bad thing is it's unlikely for them to be that close if they are going to use a pistol. Do you know the 21 foot rule?
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November 27th, 2006, 10:05 AM #36Senior Member
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Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
I agree with rwilson. You can come here and say youre a black belt in this and that and all this other good stuff. If you're that sure of yourself, don't even bother carrying a firearm.
Just remember, there's always someone better than you.
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November 27th, 2006, 11:56 AM #37
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
OK I'll admit that if there is a ninja within arms reach of me armed with some kind of blade, that It doesn't matter what condition I carry in.
That said, I carry with one in the pipe. I have no dillusions that somehow I'll have time to rack the slide should something go wrong. I also have no dillusions that I'll be able to rack the slide and it will be impossible for something to go wrong.
I trust my leather and myself enough to be comfortable with carrying one in the chamber.Drew Bingaman Chair Susquehanna Valley Libertarian Party
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November 27th, 2006, 12:16 PM #38
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
I've heard of the "Israeli Draw" or "Mossad Draw" before, but I can't seem to find much information on it in searching the Internet, outside of a brief description. Do you know of a website which provides detailed information, diagrams/pics/etc. of this draw?
I carry with one in the chamber, and currently don't have plans to change. However, I'm always interested in researching different approaches to the same problem or task. If nothing else, it's an opportunity to learn something new.
Thanks!"Political Correctness is just tyranny with manners"
-Charlton Heston
"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
-James Madison, Federalist Papers, No. 46.
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." [sic]
-John Quincy Adams
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
-Thomas Jefferson
Μολών λαβέ!
-King Leonidas
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November 27th, 2006, 12:20 PM #39
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html
There is some content down near the bottom, if you run another search stick Massad Ayoob in front of it."We shoot to stop. ... Unfortunately, death can be a byproduct."
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November 27th, 2006, 12:24 PM #40
Re: What's the law on "One in the Chamber"?
Thanks for the info!
"Political Correctness is just tyranny with manners"
-Charlton Heston
"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
-James Madison, Federalist Papers, No. 46.
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." [sic]
-John Quincy Adams
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
-Thomas Jefferson
Μολών λαβέ!
-King Leonidas
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