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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 12th, 2011, 01:42 PM
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Default anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

Hello all, let me start by saying that this is my first post in this site. i have found this site on previous occasions, and it has always been really helpful to me, so i decided to register. i have a lot of respect for the knowledge that you people post up, and am honored to be a part of this.

ok, so my wife is trying to purchase a shotgun for home protection. she started by getting her Pennsylvania concealed weapon permit, which she passed her background check , with no problem (because she wants to eventually carry a sidearm).

so we go to the gun show in monroeville on may 1st, and she finds a shotgun that she wants to buy. she produces her PA DL as well as her concealed permit. so they do the paperwork and the sales rep calls in, and the person on the other end of the phone says that this transfer is "under investigation". the sales rep informs her that she cannot leave with that shotgun today, that they have 15 days to approve or deny her the purchase. she pays for the shotgun, and they inform her that if shes approved, she can pick up her firearm at their store (Dry Tavern Service in Rices Landing). if not they will refund her money (minus a $31 free for the application). 9 days go by and the store calls her to inform her she has been denied. and that they cannot give her a reason for confidential reasons, but that she has a right to fill out a "challenge of rejection form" to find out the reason why.

she has filled out that form and sent it in, and we are currently awaiting a reply. but, my question is, how could she receive a concealed weapon permit, but get denied for a shogun/rifle purchase? is the background check more thorough for a rifle purchase? has this happened to anyone else? she has nothing in her past that would prevent her from a firearm purchase, no DUI's, no felonies, no trips to the nuthouse, no PFAs in her past. how can they deny her purchase?

any advice from anyone on here would be helpful. i thank you for taking your time to read this. just trying to do things the legal way, and your comments have help me thus far. thanks for everything!!!!!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old May 12th, 2011, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt kuggs View Post
Hello all, let me start by saying that this is my first post in this site. i have found this site on previous occasions, and it has always been really helpful to me, so i decided to register. i have a lot of respect for the knowledge that you people post up, and am honored to be a part of this.

ok, so my wife is trying to purchase a shotgun for home protection. she started by getting her Pennsylvania concealed weapon permit, which she passed her background check , with no problem (because she wants to eventually carry a sidearm).

so we go to the gun show in monroeville on may 1st, and she finds a shotgun that she wants to buy. she produces her PA DL as well as her concealed permit. so they do the paperwork and the sales rep calls in, and the person on the other end of the phone says that this transfer is "under investigation". the sales rep informs her that she cannot leave with that shotgun today, that they have 15 days to approve or deny her the purchase. she pays for the shotgun, and they inform her that if shes approved, she can pick up her firearm at their store (Dry Tavern Service in Rices Landing). if not they will refund her money (minus a $31 free for the application). 9 days go by and the store calls her to inform her she has been denied. and that they cannot give her a reason for confidential reasons, but that she has a right to fill out a "challenge of rejection form" to find out the reason why.

she has filled out that form and sent it in, and we are currently awaiting a reply. but, my question is, how could she receive a concealed weapon permit, but get denied for a shogun/rifle purchase? is the background check more thorough for a rifle purchase? has this happened to anyone else? she has nothing in her past that would prevent her from a firearm purchase, no DUI's, no felonies, no trips to the nuthouse, no PFAs in her past. how can they deny her purchase?

any advice from anyone on here would be helpful. i thank you for taking your time to read this. just trying to do things the legal way, and your comments have help me thus far. thanks for everything!!!!!
If she has her LTCF (License to Carry Firearms) it is impossible (as far as I know) to fail the background check for any firearm (the check is the same for long guns and handguns). It could just be an error with the system (as some people have the same/similar names). Others here have experienced similar problems. I wouldn't worry about it until you get a response from the challenge. Unless the authority issuing the LTCF screwed up you don't have anything to worry about.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

there's probably someone with a name similar to your wifes name that caused the denial. this type of thing happens from time to time and happened to me back in 2006. i had bought several guns and then suddenly one day i was denied. it turned out someone with a name similar to mine had a protection from abuse order issued against them. i wouldn't worry about it, just be patient and it should be resolved in a couple of weeks.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt kuggs View Post
she pays for the shotgun, and they inform her that if shes approved, she can pick up her firearm at their store (Dry Tavern Service in Rices Landing). if not they will refund her money (minus a $31 free for the application).
I think FFLs should have to apply for gambling licenses if they're going to engage in this conduct. A potential transferee cannot cannot access the PICS background check system to have the same check done as would be performed during a transfer, to reasonably ascertain their eligibility to receive the firearm. Lop that in with the fact that getting different PICS operators means different outcomes because these executive personnel are making JUDGMENTS.

The background check fee is $2, taxed to an FFL regardless of transfer. Fine. The sales surcharge of $3 only needs to be remitted for sales that actually occur, so that can be refunded for denials. FFLs get state and federal forms for free. I this FFL is spending the other $29 to lobby the government to get rid of both PICS and NICS, but since I doubt it, maybe it would be nice if the customer could put that $29 dollars toward lobbying the government herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt kuggs View Post
she started by getting her Pennsylvania concealed weapon permit, which she passed her background check , with no problem (because she wants to eventually carry a sidearm).
The LTCF exempts a transferee from a background check per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111(f)(4). It's too bad that the PSP and FFLs don't recognize that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt kuggs View Post
she has nothing in her past that would prevent her from a firearm purchase, no DUI's, no felonies, no trips to the nuthouse, no PFAs in her past. how can they deny her purchase?
People lie. Sometimes they also don't know the gravity of their situations. There's always the chance she has something on some record somewhere that she wouldn't construe as prohibiting yet it for some reason it is. (Trivia: I'm pretty sure I once read something on the Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) website, who is partially responsible for federal tax-related gun shenanigans, that there are prohibited persons that exist outside of the 18 USC 922 area. I vaguely recall something about an Atomic Act and nuclear espionage, but I've yet to be able to find those provisions ever again. Your wife has never worked in a nuclear facility, has she?...)

New records filter into databases which PICS has access to on a timeframe which most of us know nothing about. A person can be approved one day, actually be prohibited, but because the record was not received or appropriately integrated into some database, PICS did not recognize the prohibition.

Then, of course, there's PICS operators, and the judgment calls they make. I once called PICS and asked for the PICS manual that circumscribes these judgment calls they're making, because I want to know when they were granted powers only the judiciary was supposed to have. Some low level manager told me I couldn't have it. (I guess I forgot to finally send in the RTK request for it, but I'm sure they would have denied the request on some work-product exception or something. Now that I'm thinking of this topic, maybe I should prepare a request.) On one day, one operator will see these multiple Suzie Q. Public names come up and decide they can't determine which one is not prohibited, and yet the next day under a different operator, that particular operator can determine that which the previous operator could not. It's magic!





ETA SIDENOTE:
I see the atf has a list of what I must have been remembering about nuclear-espionage-related prohibtors, but only for licensees:
The Arms Export Control Act (AECA) prohibits the issuance of licenses to persons who have been convicted of:
Section 38 of the AECA, 22 USC 2778;
Section 11 of the Export Administration Act of 1979, 60 USC App. 2410;
Sections 7903, 794, or 798 of Title 18, USC, relating to espionage involving defense or classified information;
Section 16 of the Trading with the Enemy Act, 50 USC App. 16;
Section 30A of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, 15 USC 78dd-1, or section 104 of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, 15 USC 78dd-2;
Chapter 105 of Title 18, USC, relating to sabotage;
Section 4(b) of the Internal Security Act of 1950, 50 USC 783(b), relating to communication of classified information;
Sections 57, 92, 101, 104, 222, 224, 225, or 226 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, 42 USC 2077 2122, 2131, 2234, 2272, 2275, and 2276;
Section 601 of the National Security Act of 1947, 50 USC 421, relating to the protection of the identity of undercover intelligence officers, agents, and other sources;
Section 371 of Title 17, USC, when it involves conspiracy to violate any of the above statutes; and
International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 USC 1702 and 1705.

Last edited by MDJschool; May 13th, 2011 at 01:56 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDJschool View Post
The background check fee is $2, taxed to an FFL regardless of transfer. Fine. The sales surcharge of $3 only needs to be remitted for sales that actually occur, so that can be refunded for denials. FFLs get state and federal forms for free. I this FFL is spending the other $29 to lobby the government to get rid of both PICS and NICS, but since I doubt it, maybe it would be nice if the customer could put that $29 dollars toward lobbying the government herself.
So you're saying that a FFL should not get paid for his time invested if the buyer gets denied?

Yes, we receive the forms for free, but we have parts on these forms that we are required to fill out and we have to spend time on the phone with the PSP when calling in to the PICS. There are times that I have been on hold (for whatever reason) for more than 30 minutes. My charges for doing this (transfer, background check, etc.) aren't as much as others and maybe are a little more than others, but I have time invested as well as the buyer does. If denied, I give the customer the challenge form and explain to them what they now need to do. I will even review the form with them in case they have any questions. This again is more of my time. If the person is denied I still have to do specific things with the with the Record of Sale (if a handgun, SBR or SBS) and the 4473. I do not keep the sale surcharge ($3) because the sale was not done. Then I still have to send the PSP the PICS fee (more paperwork to fill out, check to write, stuffing the envelope, mailing (and where I live I have to go to the PO because we don't have door to door delivery)), so this is more of my time. So, just because someone is denied, I still have to be paid for my time.


Quote:
The LTCF exempts a transferee from a background check per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111(f)(4). It's too bad that the PSP and FFLs don't recognize that.
I agree that if the system were working the way it should be a LTCF holder should not have to undergo the PICS ever time they purchase a firearm. However, you explained it in your next paragraph. The system doesn't work they way it should. You could pass the PICS and get your LTCF and the next week you could do something that makes you a prohibited person. But, if the information doesn't get put into the system in a timely manner and subsequently transmitted to the Sheriff (in time or at all) then even though you still hold a LTCF (because the Sheriff doesn't know to revoke it) you can be denied a purchase. Other states, Utah for one, reviews their carry permit list very regularly and will pull a license the minute a person shows up as prohibited. If PA did this, then I don't see how the PSP could justify making a LTCF holder go through the PICS when purchasing (I thought people were innocent until proven guilty).
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Old May 14th, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

wow, good points everyone. i dont understand why the firearm licencing isnt run like the drivers licencing. computerized databases, where a FFL can log in, check your status, and be on your way. much like the police have, and can run a check on when they conduct a traffic stop.

its a shame when our founding fathers foresaw this, and we are still bound by the red tape that they tried to prevent. ahhh, i guess its like anything else, welfare, social security, insurance,etc, etc....

im still awaiting reply, ill be sure to keep yinz abreast of my situation.

thanks
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: anyone been rejected for a rifle/shotgun purchase?

I have a cousin that is a bad guy. We grew up together. Over 20 years ago He came up to Wisconsin looking to illegally buy guns using my name. To this day if I buy a gun on Monday or any hand gun there is always a wait. I have never been turned down but it has gone to the maximum time allowed a couple of times. My cousin is in jail in the southwest some where and will be there for a very long time the last I heard.
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