Gun Transfers

[wryekid]

Does anyone know the law on handgun registration? Today at work we had somewhat of a debate and I am not real clear on the law so any info. would help. Basically, what I was wondering is, I sold my brother an old .22 revolver to play with around his farm. He has never been in trouble, nor have I, but I never bothered to transfer the registration. It was understood between us both that if he decided to get rid of it, that I would just buy it back. Now I understand the WHAT IF'S, such as I die, He dies or whatever and that is not my worry. My concern is that, if he carried it to our camp or fishing or anywhere and the police stopped him for some reason and found he had this gun. Can he or myself get into trouble with the law because it is still registered to me? Thanks in advance for your response.

[Pa. Patriot]

In a nutshell, all private/civilian transfers of ownership, of handguns, must be done through a FFL. Exceptions are parent or grandparent to child/grandchild, child/grandchild to parent or grandparent and transfers between spouses.

Of similar interest is loans of handguns.
Loaning a handgun to someone is fine if they have a valid PA LTCF.

Hope this answers your Q.


ETA some references:

§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.
--snip--
(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed
importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or
transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only
upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer,
dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall
follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the
seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not
apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a
parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and
grandchild.

--snip

§ 6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.
(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured
by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as
provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a
firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to
the provisions of this subchapter.
(b) Exception.--
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the
following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed
to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to
licenses).
---SNIP

Ref: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...18/00.061..HTM

[Zef_66]

Pa Patriot has it right. If you received money for it, you need to have it transfered (not registered as there is no registry in PA). If no money exchanged hands and it was only a loan, that is fine. Even a loan for a long period of time is acceptable. But when money is exchanged for the firearm, you need to transfer it.

Two options:
1. Give him the money back and clarify to him that you are only loaning the gun to him for an indefinite period of time so you are both clear on the situation if anyone asks.
2. Goto a FFL dealer (any gun shop) and have the pistol legally transfered. This will cost ~$15-25 dollars and about 15 minutes.

[Xringshooter]

Just remember that to loan a handgun to another person, that person MUST have a LTCF.

There is another, way around this (using the loophole as I call it). You can "gift" it to your Dad. Once Dad receives it, as a gift he can do anything he wants with it, it is now his to do with as he pleases. If he pleases, he can then "gift" it to your brother. Now the authorities might say that your "intent" was to give it to your brother all along, but the way the law is currently written, they might have a hard time proving anything in court, especially if your attorney is well versed in the law.

[str8shooter]

Not that the law has to make sense, but why can you sell a gun to someone who doesn't have a LTCF, but not loan it to them.

Aside from that I agree XRing. If you gave the gun to a parent, and they gave it to your brother, and your brother gave you a couple hundred bucks for helping him fix his car who's to say it happened any differently. Since guns do not have to be registered you wouldn't be required to show a paper trail to prove the gun was transfered to a parent and then handed down to your brother. Just don't let us see you in front of Judge Judy if the deal goes south for some reason.

Also, wouldn't your brother have to pay state sales tax if you transfered it through a dealer?

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by str8shooter

Not that the law has to make sense, but why can you sell a gun to someone who doesn't have a LTCF, but not loan it to them.

For clarity.... Not "gun" but "firearm". Per PA code definition a firearms is essentially other than long guns.

You can't sell a handgun to someone else without transfer (with the family exceptions mentioned above) And you can't loan a handgun to anyone without a LTCF.

[Xringshooter]

str8,

FTF transfers using a FFL does not generate sales tax. The FFL is not selling the gun, you are and in a private transaction that does not need anything else done (registering, etc.) requires no sales tax just like at a garage sale (buying a car from someone privately does generate sales tax which is due upon registering the car).

That said, legally, if you buy a gun from an out of state dealer (say Bud's Gun Shop) and have it shipped to your local FFL to do the transfer, you are not liable for PA sales tax, but you are liable for PA Use Tax (which is also 6%). This is little known but they can get you on it if you buy goods from out of state and don't pay any sales tax.

[str8shooter]

Wryekid, thanks for asking the question, I got schooled today. PaPat and XRing. Thanks for the education. I can learn more on this forum in 10 minutes than I could studying statute 6111 for hours.

[Zef_66]

Originally Posted by str8shooter

Not that the law has to make sense, but why can you sell a gun to someone who doesn't have a LTCF, but not loan it to them.

Aside from that I agree XRing. If you gave the gun to a parent, and they gave it to your brother, and your brother gave you a couple hundred bucks for helping him fix his car who's to say it happened any differently. Since guns do not have to be registered you wouldn't be required to show a paper trail to prove the gun was transfered to a parent and then handed down to your brother. Just don't let us see you in front of Judge Judy if the deal goes south for some reason.

Also, wouldn't your brother have to pay state sales tax if you transfered it through a dealer?

Yes, you are correct that often times the laws don't make sense. This comes from many laws created and deleted over many years by many different lawmakers. Sometimes they knit together nicely. Sometimes they leave loopholes and don't make any sense.

But they was XRingShooter laid it out is correct.

[ScaredOnce]

I wanted to check on something before I gave it as a gift. I think I understand this, but in the spirit of wanting to practice due diligence, please let me know if some info is left out of this thread. (old thread I know, but I used the search feature before asking my question. who does that anymore??! lol)

I have two handguns I bought new from a FFL a while ago that are hardly used and like new in box. They probably have 100 rounds through them altogether. I have two brothers of age and otherwise legally able to possess firearms, also holding valid Pa. LTCFs. I want to bestow upon them at Christmas these pistols. Am I "loaning" them "indefinitely"?








wow, look at the names in this thread, btw...