Christmas

[larrymeyer]

----- Twas the month before Christmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.
See the PC Police had taken away,
The reason for Christmas - no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing,
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.
It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say
December 25th is just a "Holiday".

Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit
Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!
CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod
Something was changing, something quite odd!
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.
As Targets were hanging their trees upside down
At Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears
You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.

Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton!
At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.
And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith
Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace


The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate "Winter Break" under your "Dream Tree"
Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.
Choose your words carefully, choose what you say

Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS,
NOT.. Happy Holiday!

If they can take prayer out of schools, under God out of the pledge, and the ten commands off state buildings. Would they have trouble taking yoour guns.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by larrymeyer

If they can take Christian prayer out of schools, under God (a denominational and specific reference, mostly Christian which was never part of the original pledge in the first place) out of the pledge, and the Christian ten commands off state buildings. Would they have trouble taking yoour guns.

I fixed it for you. The real question, the one that these things should have prompted you to ask, but won't based on what might be your own religious beliefs, is if the government of a nation of supposed liberty, one that is comprised of people of many faiths and beliefs can treat one faith or system of belief with more importance, priority or weight than the others by establishing its dominance or status in interweaving terms, tenets, ceremonies or rituals with government business, what freedom do we truly have? The freedom to worship or believe what we choose, only as second class citizens of a religious state that are to be merely tolerated, but never equal.


Happy holidays.

[LorDiego01]

The Roman religion of Mithraism, which existed for hundreds of years before Christians started celebrating Christmas, holds that the birth of Mithras was on the 25th of December. In another coincidence, the birth of Mithras was also said 'to have been witnessed by three shepherds!' [Freke & Gandy 1999, p40]

Happy Winter Solstice you Pagan Heathens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[billamj]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

I fixed it for you. The real question, the one that these things should have prompted you to ask, but won't based on what might be your own religious beliefs, is if the government of a nation of supposed liberty, one that is comprised of people of many faiths and beliefs can treat one faith or system of belief with more importance, priority or weight than the others by establishing its dominance or status in interweaving terms, tenets, ceremonies or rituals with government business, what freedom do we truly have? The freedom to worship or believe what we choose, only as second class citizens of a religious state that are to be merely tolerated, but never equal.


Happy holidays.

Ummmmmmmmmm, just a few minor points here. The 10 Commandments are not a "Christian" base document but rather are a "Jewish" base document which make them relevant to three of the four major religions world wide. Those being Islam, Judaism and Christianity. The English word "God" translates to the name of the major diety in most religions worldwide, remember that it is a linguistic issue. There was never any requirement that prayer in school be "Christian." As someone who went to school when prayer was part of everyday schooling there was no specific religion noted at all.

Merry Christmas, Happy Channukah, Happy Winter Solstice or whatever you prefer to celebrate.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by billamj

Ummmmmmmmmm, just a few minor points here. The 10 Commandments are not a "Christian" base document but rather are a "Jewish" base document which make them relevant to three of the four major religions world wide. Those being Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Oh come on Bill, I know it’s hard not to defend a religious bias if you share or support it, but the post I quoted and edited was in regards to CHRISTmas. Jews don’t celebrate CHRISTmas. Muslims don’t celebrate CHRISTmas. CHRISTians celebrate CHRISTmas. I fixed the post for the OP, which is why I quoted him directly in order to do it. I was simply illustrating that it was apparent that HE (i.e. not you, not anyone not in terms of a general thought on religion and state) was showing a distinct religious bias and trying to make himself and/or his religion out to be a victim due to exclusion, all the while having the hypocrisy to obviously show that very same exclusion to those with other beliefs.

The English word "God" translates to the name of the major diety in most religions worldwide, remember that it is a linguistic issue.

People capitalize God when they are using it as a proper name - just as if we were talking about Haphaestus, Hera, Mohammed, Kali, or Odin. God is not the proper name for most religions worldwide.

Christians in particular are accustomed to using the capitalized “God” because they reference him in a personal manner. They tend to say "God spoke to me," not that "my god spoke to me." The capitalized form of God is treated as a name, therefore referencing a specific god (depending on the person making the reference).

There was never any requirement that prayer in school be "Christian." As someone who went to school when prayer was part of everyday schooling there was no specific religion noted at all.

Again, I was referencing the OP, not anyone or anything else in general terms. However, the sticking point may or may not be that the prayer be specific to Christianity, however, it is always a point that it must be state led and that it must include or be conducive to their religion, even to the point of exclusion of others. Furthermore, this doesn’t answer to those with beliefs other than religion or a lack of religious beliefs.

And to clarify something that is often purposely omitted by the religious in this discussion, prayer has not been removed from school, children can all pray on their own to their little hearts’ content. Prayer cannot be led by the state or an agent thereof. This further evidences the fact that it’s not enough for the bible-thumpers to be able to pray in school, they want the government institution to lead and officially sanction prayer and in a way that supports their religion, even if it goes against the religious beliefs of others (or those with none at all).

[axmdr40]

NineSeven, I really hate generalizations. I celebrated Christmas with a Jew three years in a row...he even came to church with us.

[billamj]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

People capitalize God when they are using it as a proper name - just as if we were talking about Haphaestus, Hera, Mohammed, Kali, or Odin. God is not the proper name for most religions worldwide.

Christians in particular are accustomed to using the capitalized “God” because they reference him in a personal manner. They tend to say "God spoke to me," not that "my god spoke to me." The capitalized form of God is treated as a name, therefore referencing a specific god (depending on the person making the reference).

Actually, Christians capitalize the word "God" because no name has ever been given for God. Odin is a name, just as Hera, etc. however the Jewish/Muslim/Christian God has never been given a name. Hence the Muslim statement; "There is no God but God and Mohammed is his prophet."

Originally Posted by NineseveN

Again, I was referencing the OP, not anyone or anything else in general terms. However, the sticking point may or may not be that the prayer be specific to Christianity, however, it is always a point that it must be state led and that it must include or be conducive to their religion, even to the point of exclusion of others. Furthermore, this doesn’t answer to those with beliefs other than religion or a lack of religious beliefs.

And to clarify something that is often purposely omitted by the religious in this discussion, prayer has not been removed from school, children can all pray on their own to their little hearts’ content. Prayer cannot be led by the state or an agent thereof. This further evidences the fact that it’s not enough for the bible-thumpers to be able to pray in school, they want the government institution to lead and officially sanction prayer and in a way that supports their religion, even if it goes against the religious beliefs of others (or those with none at all).

I think that for someone who has not had any first hand experience with the subject you are jumping to conclusions that aren't supported by the facts. Not being a "bible-thumper" I can't speak to their beliefs, but my experiences are not the same as your beliefs. As to removal from school, I personally know of a family who had a child that was suspended for praying in school prior to a test. He had nerve enough to say "Amen," a Hebrew word that translates to "I agree," aloud. Can you imagine that?

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by axmdr40

NineSeven, I really hate generalizations. I celebrated Christmas with a Jew three years in a row...he even came to church with us.

Celebrating the commercial holiday of "Christmas" and religiously honoring the birth of Christ are two different things. I think it's clear what I meant, especially in the context of the original post. If it's not based on the religious tradition of honoring the birth of Christ, then what claim do the religious have on the name of what, at that point, amounts to a commercial holiday designed to compel people to spend money and stimulate corporate bottom lines?

As a general rule, Jews do not religiously honor the birth of Christ as the savior as they do not consider Jesus Christ to be the Messiah or Savior (in strictly Jewish terms, it has not arrived yet).

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by billamj

Actually, Christians capitalize the word "God" because no name has ever been given for God.

The usage of the word denotes it taking the place as the name. You don't sat "Cat meowed at me" if you don't know the cat's name, unless you named the cat, "Cat". As far as no name being given for "God", some definitely disagree with that.

I think that for someone who has not had any first hand experience with the subject you are jumping to conclusions that aren't supported by the facts.

No first hand experience with what? I've been baptized, had my Communion and Confirmation, spent years in Catholic School and/or Sunday School. I've said prayers in church, school and everywhere in between and then later fought against non-student-led prayers and being forced to say the words "under God" during the pledge of allegiance. I'd like to know what exactly you think I have no experience with. Maybe I misread you there…

As to removal from school, I personally know of a family who had a child that was suspended for praying in school prior to a test. He had nerve enough to say "Amen," a Hebrew word that translates to "I agree," aloud. Can you imagine that?

I sure can. I can also imagine that there may be more details to the story that aren't being given here. Was the student disrupting the administration of the test through their prayer (i.e. praying aloud while the instructor was trying to administer the test or praying aloud during a time when school and test rules stipulate no talking). I'm inclined to doubt that a quiet prayer to one's self resulted in a suspension, but I am sure it is possible. Civil Rights violations happen all the time, your anecdote proves nothing more than my suspension and threatened expulsion for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance with "under God" in it during home room in a public school does.

[billamj]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

The usage of the word denotes it taking the place as the name. You don't sat "Cat meowed at me" if you don't know the cat's name, unless you named the cat, "Cat". As far as no name being given for "God", some definitely disagree with that.

Actually, I would and have said something on the order of "Cat meowed at me" though it was more like "Dogs a pain in the ass." I call animals by their names if I know them, if I don't I call them what I will. There are also people out there who claim that God's name is Ralph, I don't necissarily believe them either.

Originally Posted by NineseveN

No first hand experience with what? I've been baptized, had my Communion and Confirmation, spent years in Catholic School and/or Sunday School. I've said prayers in church, school and everywhere in between and then later fought against non-student-led prayers and being forced to say the words "under God" during the pledge of allegiance. I'd like to know what exactly you think I have no experience with. Maybe I misread you there…

Nope, my bad, although I will say that I had my experiences in public school and not in a religious based school. I would have a hard time with the concept that you can go to a religious institution and then refuse to acknowledge same though. Although I admit that your responses leave me confused, parochial and public school? Not something that one hears of often. Most kids who start in one stay in that type of school throughout but again that is just my experience.

Originally Posted by NineseveN

I sure can. I can also imagine that there may be more details to the story that aren't being given here. Was the student disrupting the administration of the test through their prayer (i.e. praying aloud while the instructor was trying to administer the test or praying aloud during a time when school and test rules stipulate no talking). I'm inclined to doubt that a quiet prayer to one's self resulted in a suspension, but I am sure it is possible. Civil Rights violations happen all the time, your anecdote proves nothing more than my suspension and threatened expulsion for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance with "under God" in it during home room in a public school does.

Now realize that I got this second hand from the father but the story goes that the boy, a fifth grader, was about to take an important math test and supposedly took a minute to say a silent prayer as the teacher was handing out the tests. When he finished his prayer he said "Amen" aloud and the teacher freaked. Now, I believe that if the boy had been saying the prayer aloud it would have been appropriate for him to be sent to the office, perhaps even been given an in school suspension, but a full suspension for a fifth grader for saying "Amen," I have issues with that. Supposedly the family is looking at lawyers to attempt to address the situation with the local school district.