What to do after a shooting

[Punisher]

Originally Posted by ssom003

Put some sort of weapon in the hand of the dead person before the police show up…
Dead man don't talk....

lol - i'm gonna take a guess here and figure you're joking. dead men may not talk, but they do tell tales..........(forensics.......) lol.

[Jelanen]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

I have to disagree with LRT on this one. The last thing you want to do post-shooting is get anywhere near the perpetrator.

First, the guy just tried to kill you, and you just shot him. If he's the sort of person to try to kill you, he's the sort of person to try to finish the job, especially because, well, you just shot him. He's not going to be rational, give up, and thank you -- he's likely going to try to continue to kill you. Especially, especially if he thinks he's going to die -- he might as well take you with him. This is the reason officers involved in a shooting aren't supposed to render aid to the shootee, especially if they're alone.

Second, by virtue of approaching him, you're bringing him a weapon (your gun) if he already doesn't have another one. Why would you do that? You should never approach anyone you have at gunpoint, period.

Third (and a distant third at that), is that if it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. Whether you render aid won't change a thing. And, it could even be suggested that you felt bad about shooting him (like you weren't perfectly justified) so you felt compelled to help.

Stand back, maintain control of the area, holster your weapon, if possible, and wait for the police to show up.

As a volunteer firefighter/fmr EMT, thats a hard pill to swallow, but I respect Rule10b5's opinion in this matter and would offer another point. I'm not a psychiatrist by any stretch of anyones imagination, but I also thing you would expose yourself to greatly increased psychological stressors by rendering first aid to the actor since you are right there seeing the consequences of the shot. The research in On Killing showed a relationship between distance of a kill and psychological trauma to the killer. Thats something to consider as well, I'd think...

[ssom003]

Guy break into my house arms with a weapon or not I will shoot him.
Just looks better if he was arm with some sort of weapon when dead...

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by ssom003

Guy break into my house arms with a weapon or not I will shoot him.
Just looks better if he was arm with some sort of weapon when dead...

We have a word for people who do that: convicts.

There is no surer way to turn a good shooting into a murder conviction than to plant a weapon, fuck with the evidence, or (once you've decided to speak with the police) to lie about anything.

[Emptymag]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there not folks who are paid to sit and read through stuff like this thread in order to prove that "Mr. Smith, did indeed say that he'd attempt to cover up a crime..." blah, blah, blah, "Here's PROOF!" "I'd like to enter into evidence, post #123 by Mr. Smith, who is known by his screen name, VenganceIsMine."

I really don't care what you'd do to an intruder, but c'mon... use some common sense.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

I have to disagree with LRT on this one.

i was thinking of the guy being unconcious. rule is certainly right on the money when it comes to tactical considerations if the guy is concious. maybe toss him some gauze and tell him to use it to apply direct pressure or toss him a packet of celox and tell him to dump it in the wound himself if he is bleeding profusely and the emts aren't going to be getting there soon.

i'll also defer to rule's opinion regarding whether or not rendering first aid would hep you in court...he obviously is the expert in that area and i am not. but, i can't help but think that a jury at least would take a malicous DA who was trying to paint you as a bloodthirsty thug less seriously if you rendered first-aid.

personally, i would probably also render first-aid...if i could do so safely...just because i think it is the right thing to do.

i do have a question for rule or anyone else regarding tactical considerations. if the guy is still concious and has a gun and it is lying within arm's reach of him. do you do anything to separate the gun from him? or do you just keep him covered and shoot him again if he reaches for it? or something else? (this is assuming you cannot take cover yourself...big open space or something).

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by Emptymag

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there not folks who are paid to sit and read through stuff like this thread in order to prove that "Mr. Smith, did indeed say that he'd attempt to cover up a crime..." blah, blah, blah, "Here's PROOF!" "I'd like to enter into evidence, post #123 by Mr. Smith, who is known by his screen name, VenganceIsMine."

I really don't care what you'd do to an intruder, but c'mon... use some common sense.

Correct, nobody is anonymous.

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i do have a question for rule or anyone else regarding tactical considerations. if the guy is still concious and has a gun and it is lying within arm's reach of him. do you do anything to separate the gun from him? or do you just keep him covered and shoot him again if he reaches for it? or something else? (this is assuming you cannot take cover yourself...big open space or something).

Tough question, not my area of expertise -- Tony?

On one hand, having a bad gun with a gun "right there" is a bad idea.

On the other, distance is your best friend. Arm's reach is pretty damn close, who knows what he could do to you if you close with him. And by approaching you're making it easier for him to hit you in the event he decides to go for it.

Personally, if we're talking arms length, I'd back off as far as I reasonably could, and deal with him depending on what he does regarding the gun.

Remember Dirty Harry? If the guy had more balls, Harry'd be dead.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

Remember Dirty Harry? If the guy had more balls, Harry'd be dead.

yeah, but i'm assuming i didn't already fire either 17 or 18 rounds.

i agree completely about not getting within arms reach of someone you are holding at gunpoint. but, i also don't want the guy being able to reach out at any time and grab the gun and shoot me (action beats reaction). i certainly don't know the best answer...maybe tony will chime in to enlighten us.

[DaveM55]

I found this a long time ago on another forum, but I can't remember exactly.

1. Remain at the scene and await the arrival of the police. Do not be in a threatening posture when they arrive. Do not have a gun in your hand. Think about how you would look to a responding officer. If you think you would look like a threat, it is logical to think that they will see you the same way.

2. Do not try and change the physical evidence at the scene. Trying to place a gun in the hands of an unarmed suspect will only get you into greater trouble. The level of forensic science in this new century will uncover such an unsophisticated attempt to alter evidence. The courts and a jury of your peers will be more understanding of an individual who killed in error, out of fear or panic, than a person who tries to tamper with evidence to make him or herself look innocent. Trying to make yourself look innocent just makes you look guilty. There is also a strong possibility that your assailant may have a previous history of conviction for violent crimes that will be in your favor even if you were mistaken about him being armed. Planting a weapon will serious negate this.

3. Do not say anything. The police may say that they need your statement to proceed with their investigation, but this is not true. Homicides are investigated every day with the most important witness being deceased. It is best to make a short statement such as, "He tried to kill me, and I had to shoot.” Then ask for a lawyer. There is nothing wrong with heading the police in the right direction, but don't say anything you are likely to regret. You have the right to remain silent and not incriminate yourself. Use it!

4. Ask for a lawyer. This is your right. Find a lawyer who understands the dynamics of use of force cases. Find out who the police in your area use and have his or her card on hand. You can do this by contacting the FOP or other police union in your area and ask who they use to defend their membership. Even if you are totally in the right, you will need to talk to a lawyer if for nothing else, to get your facts straight after the incident. You must remember that you will be coming down after an extreme adrenaline rush and will not be thinking clearly. Talking with a lawyer will help you get your story straight, as well as compose yourself, before you give the police an official statement. Remember that the police want the facts! It makes their investigation easier to pursue. By saying things that did not happen, even in error due to post incident stress will make their job much more difficult as it may send them in a wrong direction. They want you to be clear about what happened, as it will save them time. Get your facts straight before you make a statement. You may amend what you say later, but you will never totally change it. Take it slow and be smart, you won't regret it!