Hassled at the polls for OCing

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by BB62

A bit off subject (but maybe not) - can you explain why this is the case? It seems then that the "authorities" have little to fear from those they mistreat, unless the level of such mistreatment rises to such that a successful civil rights case can be brought?

In essence, they don't have much to lose, can repeatedly do the same thing to others (who probably won't know or discover that fact), yet the individual's bank account gets nailed?

Despite the presumed lawfulness of open carry, the answers I have previously heard regarding the above subjects worries my bank account a great deal.

Can you shed some light on things?

That's our American system of justice, each side pays its own legal fees, unless there's a specific statute authorizing the award of counsel fees, or one side's behavior was especially vexatious.

Some statutes, like automotive Lemon Law in PA, authorize attorney fees; that's why there are law firms specializing in Lemon Law cases. Class action suits usually allow for payment of legal fees, that's why there are so many of those, too. But appeals from government decisions are unlikely to allow an award of legal fees, in the absence of a separate civil rights lawsuit.

If it were otherwise, then you couldn't sue Ford or WalMart for injuring you without fearing that if you lost, you'd have to repay their lawyers, and their lawyers would put in a LOT of hours on every case, at $300 per hour.

Other countries do things differently. It's how we do it here.

[gnbrotz]

Posted under fair use
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Gun rights supporters expected to attend Chambersburg hearing on man's permit
By JIM HOOK Senior writer


Open carry: Linda Henderson demonstrates the use of a holster... (Public Opinion/Markell DeLoatch)

More than a dozen supporters of gun rights are expected to attend a Franklin County Court hearing on Tuesday when President Judge John R. Walker will hear arguments on whether a Chambersburg man should get back his permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Many of Greg Rotz' supporters are expected to be packing handguns in plain view, just as they do every day.

Pennsylvania law allows citizens to wear guns in the open without a permit.

Weapons, however, are not allowed in courts. Courthouse visitors must empty their pockets and pass through a metal detector. Security officers also X-ray briefcases. They keep the knives and other questionable items that people bring with them.

Franklin County Sheriff Robert Wollyung said he has instructed his officers to tell gun-toting visitors to park their weapons in their vehicles or to surrender them.

Wollyung revoked Rotz' concealed weapon permit after an incident at the New Franklin voting precinct on Election Day (Nov. 6). A state constable challenged Rotz who was wearing a handgun in a holster at his side. The constable cautioned Rotz to leave the gun in his vehicle. Rotz asserted his right to open carry.

The case has aroused open-carry advocates, who have donated nearly $3,000 toward Rotz' legal fees. His situation is a discussion topic on at least 13 different Internet bulletin boards. The original posting of his case on the Pennsylvania Firearm Association's Web site (www.pafoa.org) garnered nearly 700 replies and 42,000 views. At least 15 people from across Pennsylvania plan to attend the hearing, according to Rotz.

"I think it's amazing," Rotz said.

"Gun owners may attend the hearing because the stakes are so high for all gun owners, particularly any who want to carry their gun concealed or in a vehicle in Pennsylvania," said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. "The hearing is a de novo review of the sheriff's action, not just a review of his action for some sort of extreme abuse of discretion. The sheriff is not supposed to have discretion in the first place."

Two states require no permit to carry a concealed firearm. Of the 48 states requiring a permit to carry, 37 are "shall issue" states -- meaning that the licenses are like driver's licenses -- if you qualify for one, you get one, Stollenwerk said.

"If the United States heads backwards on 'shall issue,' this will be a huge setback for gun rights," Stollenwerk said.

In 1986, there were only eight "shall issue" states.

The sheriff

Wollyung will not be sheriff at the time of the hearing, which falls on the second day of Sheriff-elect Dane Anthony's administration.

Anthony, a former deputy sheriff, said he isn't sure if the sheriff's office has enough gun cabinets for all the weaponry that may show up in the courthouse lobby.

"I haven't been in the office for five years," Anthony said. "We'll either turn them away or take their weapons from them."

Wollyung said Rotz could avoid a hearing by applying for a permit from Anthony.

"The law requires a one-year waiting period after a denial or revocation has occurred," Rotz said. "Dropping the appeal would amount to conceding the revocation and prevent me from immediately applying for a new license to carry a concealed firearm."

But Rotz and Anthony had not spoken as of Thursday evening.

"I am taking the action I took to undo a wrong," Rotz said. "The revocation was not valid in my opinion, and I'm fighting to have it voided."

It's only the second time the 36-year-old Rotz has been to court. The first time was to complain about a neighbor's barking dog, he said. Rotz and his son discussed the court case and the 11-year old is asking his school to excuse him for an educational day to attend the proceedings.

Anthony said he has talked about the case with his administration's solicitor, Pat Redding.

"We were hoping it would be worked out by the 8th," Anthony said.

The sheriff is not required to be represented at the hearing, according to Wollyung.

Permits

A citizen can carry a gun at his or her side while walking down the street in Pennsylvania, but he or she needs a concealed weapon permit to get into a vehicle with the weapon. Pennsylvania law considers a handgun in a vehicle to be a concealed weapon.

The county sheriff issues concealed weapon permits, and has the authority to revoke a permit for the same reasons he would deny one.

The Franklin County Sheriff's office issues almost 2,000 permits to carry concealed weapons each year, according to Wollyung. The permit fee is $30. A person must be at least 18 years old. Nearly 8,000 people in Franklin County have the five-year permit.

When a person applies for a permit, the sheriff's office has 45 days in which to conduct an investigation, including a check of criminal, military and mental health databases.

Ten states allow guns to be carried openly on foot and in vehicles, according to OpenCarry.org, which tracks state laws about carrying weapons and hosts discussion groups on the topic. Six states severely restrict open carry. Pennsylvania and the other states fall in the middle.

Pennsylvania Attorney General Tom Corbett's office did not return a reporter's telephone calls inquiring about places where open carry is prohibited in Pennsylvania.

The case

Wollyung has said that the court will probably rule against him.

If Rotz did not violate the letter of the law at the polling place, he violated the spirit of the law on two points -- harassment and disorderly conduct, Wollyung said.

Rotz said he has done nothing wrong.

"Let's review the facts: The sheriff revoked Rotz' license to carry a concealed weapon because Rotz legally open carried while voting, but for some reason irritated an elected constable," Stollenwerk said. "A good analogy would be the Department of Motor Vehicles revoking Rotz' driver's license, which allows the holder to drive a motor vehicle on public roads, because Rotz legally walked across a street inside a crosswalk, but irritated an elected constable who was driving on that road."

Franklin County District Attorney John Nelson said it's "pretty apparent" when a weapon is used in a threatening fashion.

"I don't have anything in this fight," Nelson said. "This scenario is something new, and I haven't been called upon to address whether that's a violation of any criminal statute. If it's legal and not specifically prohibited, even though it may make some people uncomfortable, it's hard to argue that it's a criminal violation."

The hearing is scheduled for 2 p.m. Tuesday in Courtroom One on the third floor of the county courthouse. Entrance is from the courthouse annex on Lincoln Way East.

Carrying a weapon

Many people such as Greg Rotz want to carry a handgun for self-protection.

"I think perhaps I'm taking more seriously my responsibility for myself and my family," Rotz said.

In May, Rotz got a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The sheriff revoked the permit in November, and Rotz is in court to get it back.

The responsibility of carrying a gun may one day come down to a decision about using deadly force.

"You are justified in the use of deadly force in protecting yourself or another if you reasonably believe someone is placing you in danger of death or serious bodily injury," Franklin County District Attorney John Nelson said. "It has to be a reasonable belief. You have the duty to retreat if you can do so in safety. You are not required to retreat from your residence."

At the same time, people who carry guns also carry a greater burden should they intimidate another person.

For a person found guilty of terrorist threats, the sentencing guidelines are stiffer if the person visibly possessed a weapon at the time he or she made the threat, Nelson said.

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[CCinPA]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

Posted under fair use
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It sounds like your DA has his act together.

Nice article, I wonder if the constable will attend? I am not a lawyer but I would think it is the constable's testimony that will be important since he was the witness who reported to the sheriff, and will he be wiling to purger himself?

[ChamberedRound]

To all those attending Greg's hearing: be careful when arriving at the courthouse. From the quote of the new Sheriff in this article, they may not have a place for you all to check your weapons, despite the UFA requiring it:

Anthony, a former deputy sheriff, said he isn't sure if the sheriff's office has enough gun cabinets for all the weaponry that may show up in the courthouse lobby.

"I haven't been in the office for five years," Anthony said. "We'll either turn them away or take their weapons from them."

I probably don't have to say this, but if you're asked to surrender your weapon, don't cause a scene; it's quite possible everyone's behavior on hearing day could be used as evidence of Greg's character and who he chooses to associate with. If you don't want to surrender your weapon, perhaps suggest that you leave your weapon in your car, or just do so before entering the courthouse, in the event there's no lockers left to check your weapon.

[CCinPA]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

To all those attending Greg's hearing: be careful when arriving at the courthouse. From the quote of the new Sheriff in this article, they may not have a place for you all to check your weapons, despite the UFA requiring it:



I probably don't have to say this, but if you're asked to surrender your weapon, don't cause a scene; it's quite possible everyone's behavior on hearing day could be used as evidence of his character and who he chooses to associate with. If you don't want to surrender your weapon, perhaps suggest that you leave your weapon in your car, or just do so before entering the courthouse, in the event there's no lockers left to check your weapon.

Well said and they very well may not have enough capacity to handle 20 plus additional weapons. I will be arriving with P. Patriot and I already asked him if he minded if I leave mine in his vehicle should they not have proper capacity.

But As Chambered Round said we are there representing gnbrotz so our behavior will need to be on the nothing other that extreme polite.
We also must keep in mind there very well may be press there and we also are representing all firearms owners.

[chesire17201]

Franklin County Sheriff Robert Wollyung said he has instructed his officers to tell gun-toting visitors to park their weapons in their vehicles or to surrender them.

Well now sheriff, let's just put it out there to all the criminals that you want the guns UNSECURELY in their vehicles instead of following the law and securing them for us. And WTF does SURRENDER mean, I would hope it meant you would SECURE them during the hearing the RETURN them to their owners. ( by unsecured in the vehicle I mean that it's not AS secure as if they were to lock them up like the law requires, not that we'd leave our guns on the seats and the windows down or anything...)

Wollyung has said that the court will probably rule against him.

If Rotz did not violate the letter of the law at the polling place, he violated the spirit of the law on two points -- harassment and disorderly conduct, Wollyung said.

Rotz said he has done nothing wrong.

"Let's review the facts: The sheriff revoked Rotz' license to carry a concealed weapon because Rotz legally open carried while voting, but for some reason irritated an elected constable," Stollenwerk said. "A good analogy would be the Department of Motor Vehicles revoking Rotz' driver's license, which allows the holder to drive a motor vehicle on public roads, because Rotz legally walked across a street inside a crosswalk, but irritated an elected constable who was driving on that road."

Franklin County District Attorney John Nelson said it's "pretty apparent" when a weapon is used in a threatening fashion.

"I don't have anything in this fight," Nelson said. "This scenario is something new, and I haven't been called upon to address whether that's a violation of any criminal statute. If it's legal and not specifically prohibited, even though it may make some people uncomfortable, it's hard to argue that it's a criminal violation."

But lets keep this going, even though you readily admit that Rotz has NOT violated the law, Maybe He needs to sue your ass for violating the SPIRIT of "Official Oppression" even though you clearly violated that LAW....

And the DA states that he CANNOT win this.....But god forbid anyone talk some sense into them and just overturn the revocation and admit the sheriff fu#*ed up........ the stupidity of the jerkoffs that are in power here in franklin county.....oh what a wonderful place.....

[CCinPA]

Originally Posted by chesire17201

the stupidity of the jerkoffs that are in power here in franklin county.....oh what a wonderful place.....

Unfortunately Franklyn County is not all that different form may other Counties in PA.
Very, very sad but it is a reality!

[lildobe]

Originally Posted by chesire17201

Well now sheriff, let's just put it out there to all the criminals that you want the guns UNSECURELY in their vehicles instead of following the law and securing them for us.

I wonder... if we WERE required to secure our weapons in our cars... and lets just say some criminal read this article and knew there'd be a bunch of guns for the taking, decided to break into several cars at the franklin county courthouse lot and steal our weapons...

Would we have a case for suing Franklin County and the Sheriff? After all, they are required by law to secure our weapons for us...

[chesire17201]

Originally Posted by CCinPA

Unfortunately Franklyn County is not all that different form may other Counties in PA.
Very, very sad but it is a reality!

You know, it's things like this that really make me miss being in Va.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by CCinPA

I wonder if the constable will attend? I am not a lawyer but I would think it is the constable's testimony that will be important since he was the witness who reported to the sheriff, and will he be wiling to purger himself?

The Constable has been subpoenaed to testify. If he fails to appear, there will be further legal matters he'll need to deal with.