MAJOR black eye for all of us

[billamj]

"so what about the rest of you? you would of sat there and let him beat you to a pulp? This is exactly why people have a CCW to protect themselves in case of an altercation!"

An unarmed man beating you in a fist fight is no reason to draw your weapon. Your logic is specious at best. As long as the man is not armed you do not have the right to pull your weapon. It might be different if he pulled something or picked up some type of weapon, but unarmed?

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by billamj

"so what about the rest of you? you would of sat there and let him beat you to a pulp? This is exactly why people have a CCW to protect themselves in case of an altercation!"

An unarmed man beating you in a fist fight is no reason to draw your weapon. Your logic is specious at best. As long as the man is not armed you do not have the right to pull your weapon. It might be different if he pulled something or picked up some type of weapon, but unarmed?

Your right to defend your self by any means if you are over powered includes a gun, now your right to shoot this person is an other thing, but you have the right to defend your self.
We dont know this persons medical qualities. maybe the only way he could walk off this field after a few punches was to show he had a gun to cool off the coach a bit and then walk away.

[danp]

Originally Posted by billamj

An unarmed man beating you in a fist fight is no reason to draw your weapon. Your logic is specious at best. As long as the man is not armed you do not have the right to pull your weapon. It might be different if he pulled something or picked up some type of weapon, but unarmed?

While I don't think it is the case in this story, I'd have to disagree in some cases.

I'm not a big guy (tall, skinny) so if some 280lb linebacker wanted to start kicking my ass he could easily get me on the ground and beat me to death if he wanted to. Fists and feet can be just as deadly as a gun or a knife, especially if there is a size/strength disparity.

If I was ever in a situation where someone much larger than me was trying to severely hurt me, even weaponless, I would have no problem breaking leather. "Iminent danger of death of serious bodily harm" doesn't necessarily have to mean they have a gun to your head.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

This to me is a simple case of selfe defence, the father did not shoot any one, he was trying to drive away not hitting any one, did not shoot or run over any one, even the ump when he blocked him off.

Not that simple, for two reasons:

1. In general, a mere fistfight is not cause to use (or threaten via brandishing) deadly force, unless there is a major disparity of size and/or skill and you fear for your life, and

2. The guy lost the use of that line of defense when he was a WILLING participant in a CONSENSUAL fight. To be able to use "self defense" when you are losing a fight, you have to be 100% blameless in the prefight buildup. But if you went a long way towards starting the fight, you become a participant, not a victim. If some thug jumps you on the street and you're losing the hand to hand fight -- that's one thing. If you pick a fight at a park, and then start losing the fight -- another thing entirely.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

Not that simple, for two reasons:

1. In general, a mere fistfight is not cause to use (or threaten via brandishing) deadly force, unless there is a major disparity of size and/or skill and you fear for your life, and

2. The guy lost the use of that line of defense when he was a WILLING participant in a CONSENSUAL fight. To be able to use "self defense" when you are losing a fight, you have to be 100% blameless in the prefight buildup. But if you went a long way towards starting the fight, you become a participant, not a victim. If some thug jumps you on the street and you're losing the hand to hand fight -- that's one thing. If you pick a fight at a park, and then start losing the fight -- another thing entirely.

Where did you read that the father willingly went to the fight? he has to leave the field at some point, no mater how he does it, when he walks to his truck to leave, he is walking into the coaches trap that is already set. The coach not the father suggested they go fight, at this time, no mater what the father does to leave he is walking into the coaches invitation unless he can fly upwards, no mater what he does, he is in the coaches trap. What should of happened, is the ump should of gone over and said to both men to stop, then tell the parent to take his truck home, this did not happen, the ump took the kids away after the gun was pulled, this is good, but then came back as superman and tried to stop a truck, an other stupid situation. he should of been the one to escort the person off the field as soon as he saw there was an altercation and make sure they get away from each other. This would of stopped the coache's invitation to take it out on him. Then he could of suggested to the father to go home and let things cool off.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Where did you read that the father willingly went to the fight?

If nothing else, he started the verbal woofing that preceded the fistfight.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

If nothing else, he started the verbal woofing that preceded the fistfight.

So then make ever spectator and parent there guilty, never been to a game any where where there was not some "woofing" as you put it. Don't give the right to the coach to invite to a fight, this BTW under todays law is concidered a terroristic threat. To invite some one or let them believe they could be in danger by some thing you say. IE: meet me in the parking where we can "settle this like men". As Dan said not every one is conditionned to fighting, chances are the coach is in better physical advantage then the "average" 49 year old father. Stop and think of it if you where in HIS shoes and what you would of done. I think this person did every thing he could to avoid further confrontation, to me the coach is the instigator here, What parent thinks his kid gets too much "field" time? they all complain of not enough time on the field, sports today are expansive people count $ per minutes. So naturally they complain, the coach took it one step too far by inviting to a different sport. One the father did not intend to participate in from what i read there.
To me the major black eye is that there are people like you who claim to be 2A and then condemn some one for protecting himself. THATS a black eye! What i see here is the very reason most of us who have a gun for home protection and or have a CCW have it, self protection, like i said before, he did not pull the gun before he was menaced or beaten, and I quote

When the coach gained the advantage in the fight, Derkotch pulled his gun.

Does not say here the parent at any time attempted to fight, merely says the coach gained advantage, he may of had advantage from the very start being his phisycal as a coach is probably better then the average 49 year old male in the US. So put your self in his shoes, what would you of done?
I know for my self, as a 46 year old man who once had major surgury because of a cancer, the very minute he swung i would pull, and rightly so, because one blow to the head and that could be it! Like i said earlyer, we dont know this father's medical hostory, all we know is there are people out there ready to lynch him for protecting himself. And to boot it, one who owns a gun!!!! Thats the black eye!

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

So then make ever spectator and parent there guilty, never been to a game any where where there was not some "woofing" as you put it. Don't give the right to the coach to invite to a fight, this BTW under todays law is concidered a terroristic threat. To invite some one or let them believe they could be in danger by some thing you say. IE: meet me in the parking where we can "settle this like men". As Dan said not every one is conditionned to fighting, chances are the coach is in better physical advantage then the "average" 49 year old father. Stop and think of it if you where in HIS shoes and what you would of done. I think this person did every thing he could to avoid further confrontation, to me the coach is the instigator here, What parent thinks his kid gets too much "field" time? they all complain of not enough time on the field, sports today are expansive people count $ per minutes. So naturally they complain, the coach took it one step too far by inviting to a different sport.

A couple of points:

1. The parent started the altercation by action of his words. If the parent had kept his mouth shut and hadn't lost his temper, nothing that followed would have happened. Just because everyone's "woofing", doesn't make it right.
2. The parent KNEW he was wrong, as the news article stated that the parent apologized to the coach after being arrested.
3. When a person instigates a situation, then brandishes a gun, that's not self-defense IMHO. If the man wasn't willing to "mix it up" with the coach, then he should've just left. No one forced him into an altercation.

[Buckmark.35]

From the article:

"As Derkotch told Henwood, Derkotch had been arguing with the coach when the coach told him to take it to the side so they could "settle this like men." Both knew that meant a fight."

The Coach said.. let's settle this like men. He didn't jump the guy, all he said was "let's settle this like men". Both knew it meant a fist fight, and BOTH decided to participate. The parent in this incident is just as guilty for starting the fight as the coach is. I'm sure if the dad had said.. "I'm not going to fight you"... there would have been no physical violence.

I am an elementary football coach, and I umpire little league baseball games.. Parents can be absolutely out of control. He thought he would whoop the coach, and it turned out to be the other way around..

Bottom line is that he went too far.. He volunteered for this fight. He was getting beat, so he pulled a gun. It would have been different if the coach had jumped the guy in a dark alley, or if he would have been waiting by the bleachers for him after the game. They were settling it "like men", and the dad turned coward when he began to lose.

[billamj]

Originally Posted by danp

While I don't think it is the case in this story, I'd have to disagree in some cases.

I'm not a big guy (tall, skinny) so if some 280lb linebacker wanted to start kicking my ass he could easily get me on the ground and beat me to death if he wanted to. Fists and feet can be just as deadly as a gun or a knife, especially if there is a size/strength disparity.

If I was ever in a situation where someone much larger than me was trying to severely hurt me, even weaponless, I would have no problem breaking leather. "Iminent danger of death of serious bodily harm" doesn't necessarily have to mean they have a gun to your head.

True enough Dan but in a situation like this I would seriously have to believe that someone would step in if it were that far out of hand. Additionally, this clown, instead of using his head and walking away when the coach invited him to fight, willingly went with the guy. Then he had the nerve to pull the weapon when he was getting his butt kicked. This clown is a putz plain and simple and in this situation the cops will NEVER back up the CCW holder and neither will the law.