Gun ban on the way to work? What do you think?

[mikepro8]

Okay. Here is the scenario. I work for a county Probation and Parole department and we are currently going over our use of force policy including lethal force and all that jazz. My chief wants to adopt the State parole board's policy of firearms in which is strictly limits carrying only the agency issued weapon. That sucks, cant carry a backup weapon... if you are caught, risk the chance of being disciplined, even fired. Here is the part that REALLY gets my goat. Their policy (not ours yet, hopefully wont be if I have my say) specifically states that employees cannot carry firearms other than agency issued weapons TO AND FROM WORK. My initial thought was BULL SHIT, they arent paying me, I am not on the clock, not on county time, not driving their vehicles, not under their insurance at the time. How can they tell me what I can and can't do, even if its legal, on the way to work?

Any thoughts?

[XD45]

I think some police agencies have to carry their duty weapon even when off the clock.

[EODguy]

Like you said "they ain't paying you for the drive" so screw 'em. But that's just my opinion. And if they made that the policy then what ever you do don't just ignore the policy and carry anyway, because that is just wrong!

[ExCopInPhilly]

My department gave us a list of approved CCW's for off-duty. the reason is that, in the event that you are confronted by anyone which results in the use of your firearm, your training and position puts the department or agency under a specific liability. In addition, we were also limited to using the department specified ammunition, because their ballistics were already a department understood and assumed liability. Don't fight what they are saying, fight for choice. Make them give you a couple of choices for off duty carry, based upon ability to conceal.

[lonehiker]

in some states workmans comp ins covers portal to portal, from home to work and back, that maybe why and other related ins issues may apply as well, portal to portal

life sometimes sucks. be like a duck and let it roll of your back every once and a while

[MarcS]

Originally Posted by mikepro8

Okay. Here is the scenario. I work for a county Probation and Parole department and we are currently going over our use of force policy including lethal force and all that jazz. My chief wants to adopt the State parole board's policy of firearms in which is strictly limits carrying only the agency issued weapon. That sucks, cant carry a backup weapon... if you are caught, risk the chance of being disciplined, even fired. Here is the part that REALLY gets my goat. Their policy (not ours yet, hopefully wont be if I have my say) specifically states that employees cannot carry firearms other than agency issued weapons TO AND FROM WORK. My initial thought was BULL SHIT, they arent paying me, I am not on the clock, not on county time, not driving their vehicles, not under their insurance at the time. How can they tell me what I can and can't do, even if its legal, on the way to work?

Any thoughts?

You need to speak up. Just because you're not working doesn't mean some shitbag you PO or used to PO for on duty can't hunt you down.

[mikepro8]

The strange thing is, Probation Depts. are kind of in a loop hole. We are PEACE officers with police powers. We police a very select group of people, those who have been convicted of a crime. We actually need a permit to carry concealed when off duty, unlike sworn police who do not. All they need is their badge and ID.

As for the workman's comp thing, that is interesting. In that case, they may have an argument. Anyone know if PA is that way? Regardless - that doesnt help if me or my wife are attacked or witness an attack on the way to and from work.

They arent restricting what I carry off duty, only that I can only carry a personal weapon on duty. I cannot carry a dept. issued weapon off duty (again, the difference between police and peace officers). We carry Glock 23s at work, and the two guns I routinely CC are a glock 27 (smaller G23) and a Kel Tec P3AT.

My concern is this - we are justified in using force only against people under our supervision and people we come across as a direct result of our supervision (family members and whatnot). For example, if I were to act to stop a robbery or an assault on my way to or from work, I am acting as a citizen, not a LEO. If I were to use county property ie - G23 in said act, I would be liable in so many ways it's silly. Conversely, if I carry my P3AT while in duty and use it because of a catastrophic failure of my glock (which happens people... believe it or not), I would also be liable and may also be disciplined or fired.

[G21.45]

Originally Posted by lonehiker

in some states workmans comp ins covers portal to portal, from home to work and back, that maybe why and other related ins issues may apply as well, portal to portal ...

It used to be that way for me; but, a large part of my job involved field service. I WAS working while I was on the road.

Originally Posted by Mikepro8

They arent restricting what I carry off duty, only that I can only carry a personal weapon on duty. I cannot carry a dept. issued weapon off duty (again, the difference between police and peace officers). We carry Glock 23s at work, and the two guns I routinely CC are a glock 27 (smaller G23) and a Kel Tec P3AT ...

You might want your employer to consider that if you have to carry one pistol back and forth TO work, and then use another pistol while AT work, well what do you do with the commutation piece, either, (1) while you're on the employer's property or (2) working on the road and traveling around with 3 guns in the vehicle?

(That's a lot of extra guns; and you, sure as heck, don't want to be leaving them behind you in the car while you're conducting at-home interviews.)

The ammunition shouldn't be a major issue; and, interestingly, it's probably the most litigious. Just use the same caliber and cartridges. Maybe I'm a little slow on this; but, what's the big deal about shooting a BG with your employer's pistol while you're off the clock? If the guy needs shooting, then, he needs shooting.

Isn't that what many police officers would do, anyway?

[Steve in PA]

With issued weapons, they can have restrictions on when and where you can carry the weapon. If they don't want you to carry it when your "off-duty" then you can't.

Obtain a PA LTC and buy your own personal handgun to carry when your "off-duty", there is nothing they can do about that.

Its kind of what some states do to their police in regards to carrying in other states after the passing of the LEOSA. Some officers are not allowed to take their issued weapons out of state, so they buy their own personal weapon and everything is good.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by mikepro8

Their policy (not ours yet, hopefully wont be if I have my say) specifically states that employees cannot carry firearms other than agency issued weapons TO AND FROM WORK. My initial thought was BULL SHIT, they arent paying me, I am not on the clock, not on county time, not driving their vehicles, not under their insurance at the time. How can they tell me what I can and can't do, even if its legal, on the way to work?

Any thoughts?

Technically, they cannot tell you what to do when you're not on the clock. However, reality is a little more complicated. A few points here:

- If you are licensed to carry as a private citizen, then you can carry whatever the UFA says you can carry and not get in legal trouble. However, don't be a hypocrite and carry with your tin; carry with a private LTCF like all the rest of us. IMHO, if you carry using your tin you have to follow department rules, and if you don't follow their rules, you may be rightfully subjected to disciplinary action or firing.

- Although they technically can't tell you what to do outside of work, once on their property you're required to follow their rules. If you carry anything other than your duty weapon to work in your car, and you park your car on their property, then as the administrators of the property they can tell you not to carry to and from work as an extension of that. If you don't wish to adhere to that you are not breaking any law, but since PA is an "at will" employment state you could again be subject to disciplinary action or firing.