Help PAFOA with a secret project: Arguments and Research Needed

[Arcana71]

I'll try to contribute more as I can, but for now, I'll put up a hypothetical circumstance that actually straddles both issues:

A collector has twelve firearms stolen. Being a good boy, he reports them. Better yet, his collection is insured. Once he receives his check, is he required under an arbitrary law to wait an entire year to restore his collection? Of course, all this hinges on the idea that he won't miss an antique sold at auction or have to forego a once-in-a-lifetime private sale because it's outside his 30-day window.

Also... with the exception of pharmaceutical refills, are there any other commercial products available anywhere on the market to which we have assigned limits on the number that can be owned or the frequency with which they can be purchased? If not, then let's just call it rationing and be done with it.

I'll try to follow up when I can devote more gray matter to the issue.

[CommonHighrise]

Devil's Advocate for 1 Gun/Month;

The problem we are up against is that, under the current system of laws, it would be perfectly doable for someone with a clean record to walk into any gun store, buy 100 guns, turn around, and sell them on the street. This would, in a matter of a few hours, put 100 guns into the hands of criminals, with nothing to stop anyone from doing this, unless the police actually catch them selling the guns.

Enacting this law would put a very large roadblock in the weapons trafficer's loophole. The opposition to this law claims that it would put an unfair burden on "law-abiding" citizens, but this is not so. The limit would be on one handgun transfer per 30 days, not purchase. If a person wanted to purchase multiple handguns in that 30-day time, say for a numerically matched set of pistols, or found a great deal on a pistol after purchasing one earlier, there is nothing stopping them from making that purchase. This law would only stop them from taking possession of more than one gun per 30 days. This is a more than resonable precaution to take to curb the wholesale of handguns to criminals on the street.

Edit: A really cherry peice of statistics to find would show where criminals who get the guns got them from, to show what we already know, that they have wifes or other family/friends buy it for them, not from a mass-trafficer. Unfortunatley, Im having no luck in finding it, and chances are police never look into it that deeply to draw a solid statistic. Still, could be a clincher to use against 1 Gun/Month.

[P89]

Just a little something that may mean nothing.

Lost & Stolen:

I've seen may people here say that if questions do arise that their defence would be "Well, I was in a boating accident." Fair enough.
So, I'm out on the lake and for some reason or another my sidearm falls overboard. So I mark it in my GPS and take a depth reading from my fish finder. Now it technically isn't lost or stolen...I know where it is I just can't get to it. Only a scuba diver can get to it. Where does that leave us?

[dodgefolks]

"A collector has twelve firearms stolen. Being a good boy, he reports them. Better yet, his collection is insured. Once he receives his check, is he required under an arbitrary law to wait an entire year to restore his collection? Of course, all this hinges on the idea that he won't miss an antique sold at auction or have to forego a once-in-a-lifetime private sale because it's outside his 30-day window."


Devils advocate: Collector? What kind of person would want to collect guns anyway. Isn't good to limit that kind of unstable person anyway. As for replacing his stolen guns or missing out on a good deal a GUN collector CAN'T possibly be that mentally stable anyway and limiting their collection has to be a good thing! Anything that limits the number of guns in private possession is a good thing!

God just typing that made me sick to my stomach!

[Arcana71]

I made a few small edits:

Originally Posted by dodgefolks

What kind of person would want to collect comic books anyway. Isn't good to limit that kind of unstable person anyway. As for replacing his stolen comic books or missing out on a good deal a comic book collector CAN'T possibly be that mentally stable anyway and limiting their collection has to be a good thing! Anything that limits the number of comic books in private possession is a good thing!

Now read it again.

Originally Posted by dodgefolks

God just typing that made me sick to my stomach!

I hear you, bro.

[5711-Marine]

On the stolen gun reporting ceasefirepa has the following:

Note the wording of the message, making it sound as though it is common sense, and to oppose it is insane.

Why is requiring the reporting of lost and stolen guns necessary?

Most gun violence is committed by people who cannot lawfully purchase or possess guns. These criminals rely on straw purchasers to buy the guns from licensed gun dealers and then sell them on the illegal street market. Law enforcement officials report that when a “crime gun” is successfully traced back to the last person who legally owned it, that person frequently claims the gun was lost or stolen, even if they never reported it at the time. Since there is no requirement for reporting lost or stolen guns, no prosecution is possible, and the straw purchasers feeding the illegal market go unpunished.

Won’t straw purchasers just report their guns were stolen?

A straw purchaser might report a couple of guns as stolen, but if every few weeks someone filed a report that his or her guns were lost or stolen, he or she would fast become the target of a police investigation. No person breaking the law is going to bring that kind of attention and scrutiny to themselves.

Isn’t the lawful gun owner likely to get tripped up by this law and have to pay a fine or go to court?

Conscientious gun owners keep track of their guns and ensure their guns are stored in a safe place. Such owners call the police when their guns are lost or stolen because their guns are valuable property. They will want to file an insurance claim, they will want to get the gun back if it’s recovered, and they do not want their gun to end up in the wrong hands. Responsible gun owners will not be affected by this law.

What reason is there to believe Pennsylvanians support stronger handgun safety laws?

In November 2007, CeaseFirePA conducted a poll of key legislative districts in Pennsylvania. Lost and stolen handgun reporting requirements received support from 96% of respondents and 70% of gun owners.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by 5711-Marine

On the stolen gun reporting ceasefirepa has the following:

Note the wording of the message, making it sound as though it is common sense, and to oppose it is insane.

Why is requiring the reporting of lost and stolen guns necessary?

Most gun violence is committed by people who cannot lawfully purchase or possess guns. These criminals rely on straw purchasers to buy the guns from licensed gun dealers and then sell them on the illegal street market. Law enforcement officials report that when a “crime gun” is successfully traced back to the last person who legally owned it, that person frequently claims the gun was lost or stolen, even if they never reported it at the time. Since there is no requirement for reporting lost or stolen guns, no prosecution is possible, and the straw purchasers feeding the illegal market go unpunished.

The punishment is a summary offense under most of these proposed laws. That will hardly deter a straw buyer, who is frequently a drug addict or the girlfriend of a gang member, and is already committing multiple misdemeanors and felonies.


Won’t straw purchasers just report their guns were stolen?

A straw purchaser might report a couple of guns as stolen, but if every few weeks someone filed a report that his or her guns were lost or stolen, he or she would fast become the target of a police investigation. No person breaking the law is going to bring that kind of attention and scrutiny to themselves.

So, the same Keystone Kops who are incapable of prosecuting someone who sold multiple guns to multiple felons in the first paragraph, are going to see through the "someone stole my guns" story in paragraph 2. Right.

Isn’t the lawful gun owner likely to get tripped up by this law and have to pay a fine or go to court?

Conscientious gun owners keep track of their guns and ensure their guns are stored in a safe place. Such owners call the police when their guns are lost or stolen because their guns are valuable property. They will want to file an insurance claim, they will want to get the gun back if it’s recovered, and they do not want their gun to end up in the wrong hands. Responsible gun owners will not be affected by this law.

This ignores the fact that you can be a lawful gun owner, and still lose track of some guns, your car keys, the remote control, the dog, or your garden hose. The statutes punish non-reporting if you "should have known". Does anybody here who owns more than 10 guns do a physical count every day?

What reason is there to believe Pennsylvanians support stronger handgun safety laws?

In November 2007, CeaseFirePA conducted a poll of key legislative districts in Pennsylvania. Lost and stolen handgun reporting requirements received support from 96% of respondents and 70% of gun owners.

Asking Philadelphians whether we need to punish lawful gun owners or the kids who commit crimes is a no-brainer, they make excuses for their own kids, but not some hypothetical gun owner. Most citizens haven't a clue what the gun laws are, they've been told repeatedly that guns can be bought on the street like Pokemon cards, that there's a gun show loophole that allows gangs to trundle shopping carts into gun shows and leave with MAC's and bazookas, and they see news reports that gun traffickers receive probation and light sentences (that part is true.)

Asking ignorant people their opinions doesn't yield wisdom, it yields ignorant answers. Ask 10,000 Pennsylvanians the value of Pi, and averaging their wild-ass guesses won't give you 3.14 or anything close. You'll probably get "$2 a slice?" or "around $5 for a nice shoe-fly."

Without browsing Chapter 61 of Title 18, you aren't in any position to state whether we need more gun laws. Without enforcing the existing laws and throwing the straw purchasers who they catch into prison, the legislators are in no position to propose tougher laws.

[JayBell]

response for the whole law argument:

"Laws are not made for the lawless"- Russian Proverb.

[CommonHighrise]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

...The punishment is a summary offense under most of these proposed laws. That will hardly deter a straw buyer, who is frequently a drug addict or the girlfriend of a gang member, and is already committing multiple misdemeanors and felonies....

The good rebuttal to that would be asking for the statistics. Like I said in my previous post, not enough police reports digging that deep to draw a solid line between the two, which makes this an emotional, speculative theory rather than fact.

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

...So, the same Keystone Kops who are incapable of prosecuting someone who sold multiple guns to multiple felons in the first paragraph, are going to see through the "someone stole my guns" story in paragraph 2. Right.

This is probably one of the best angles we have to hit this with, since it uses the Anti's own "common sense tactic" against them. Shows that if cops were that interested in prosecuting these, it would be easy to see through their false claims.

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

This ignores the fact that you can be a lawful gun owner, and still lose track of some guns...Does anybody here who owns more than 10 guns do a physical count every day?

Dont know if I would use this ver-batim. A stronger angle to take it on would be to point out that most gun owners with multiple guns purchase safes, fireboxes, or other long term storage device, that may not be opened for weeks or months at a time. This could catch normally law-abiding citizens in the "you should have known by now" dragnet.

That way it puts it out there that while many gun owners own enough firearms they might lose track of one, it has the reassurance that it's because they stay locked up.

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

...they've been told repeatedly that guns can be bought on the street like Pokemon cards, that there's a gun show loophole that allows gangs to trundle shopping carts into gun shows and leave with MAC's and bazookas...

Good argument against Ceasefire's known fraudulent statistics for "public support". Point out the false and misleading statements of the media concerning the "gun show loophole" and the availability of "assault weapons". Reaffirm that common public knowledge is easily skewed by the media, resulting in any non-gun owner with any common sense to beleive theres an epidemic at hand.

Another strong counter to their statistics on this is to pull poll from PA gun groups such as PAFOA and PAOC, and hit them back with some strong numbers of gun owners. I know PAFOA cleared 10k a while back, and thats a strong number to be against this law.

[CommonHighrise]

Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone. To access The Enforcement Gap: Federal Gun Laws Ignored, visit http://w3.agsfoundation.com/. For a state-by-state chart of gun crimes (FY 2000-2002), click here.

Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. ...The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here.

Source: http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoo...statistics.htm

We have laws. They go unused. From the Anti's own mouth(site).