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		<title>Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum - General</title>
		<link>http://forum.pafoa.org</link>
		<description>General firearm-related talk that does not fit into any of the other forums.</description>
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			<title>Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum - General</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org</link>
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		<item>
			<title>Is Being Young Looked Down Upon?</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79606-being-young-looked-down-upon.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:08:52 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I guess my little rant of the day. 
 
I've been in the market for a new pistol. More along the lines of a Sig or a 1911 of some sort. Some of you may...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I guess my little rant of the day.<br />
<br />
I've been in the market for a new pistol. More along the lines of a Sig or a 1911 of some sort. Some of you may have seen the thread in the &quot;Pistols&quot; fourm.<br />
<br />
While shopping online and gathering prices, I also stopped at my local gun stores as well as the &quot;Mom &amp; Pops&quot; variants. I stopped in at this particular gun store on my way to work. I work for the PLCB (Liquor Store) so it requires buisness attire (Slacks, Tie, Etc).<br />
<br />
When I went in there was a single customer infront of me and the gentleman behind the counter helping him. (One employee and thats the owner) I browsed around and wanted to look at a particular Sig P220 he had for sale used. Remember used, this is important.<br />
<br />
I am extremely respectful when it comes to people I don't know. I had only been in this shop once before. So I waited my turn and I asked to see the Sig. Good condition, extremely dirty, asking price of 995 Used.  Knowing the pistol retails anywhere from 875-950 new, I knew this was a little much. I simply stated in my exact words &quot;Is there any wiggle room on the price?&quot; I am fine with someone making a little money to support their buisness. Not a complete gouge.<br />
<br />
He said &quot; Nope, it is what it is.&quot; Then his phone rang. I sat this pistol back down and he looked up at me, with a sarcastic tone and said &quot;Anything else?&quot; I said &quot;What about the Green Springfield Gi you have over there.&quot; It was the only green 1911 in the case. &quot;About a thousand&quot; and didn't pay any attention to anything. He didn't even look in the case.<br />
<br />
The gun retails for between 550-650.<br />
<br />
I know this encounter may seem trivial but I was extremely pissed off. I felt like since I was young and dressed well, that I was &quot;too good&quot; to be in the store looking at expensive pistols. That I was wasting his time. Mind you if we could've come to an agreement. I would've bought the Sig. Cash in wallet.<br />
<br />
But since I was young I was stereo-typed and no respect given.<br />
<br />
Perhaps I need to worry about other things.</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>Smalls</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79606-being-young-looked-down-upon.html</guid>
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			<title>More FFLs needed in Pittsburgh area?</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79599-more-ffls-needed-pittsburgh-area.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:25:58 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I'm from eastern part of Allegheny county and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of FFLs in my area.  I'm near Anthony Arms, but they charge $50...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I'm from eastern part of Allegheny county and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of FFLs in my area.  I'm near Anthony Arms, but they charge $50 for a transfer, which is about double the going rate.<br />
<br />
I used to love going to Todd @ GROPA, but he has been gone more than a year now.  I know he is talking about coming back, but he leaves a big hole in the transfer market in the mean time.<br />
<br />
I know the qualifications for getting an FFL have really tightened up on &quot;kitchen-table&quot; dealers.  I have a unique opportunity in that I own a commercial building that I could partially dedicate to the task of doing transfers in an economical manner.  I'm curious if anyone sees an actual need or demand for this service or if I'm just wasting my time and somehow missing a bunch of FFL dealers that can help me transfer at a reasonable rate.<br />
<br />
Obviously, I realize that there is not huge money in this and this wouldn't be a primary business for me... just a way to help people in the area that are having the same problems that I'm having finding a reliable and reasonably priced place to complete a transfer.<br />
<br />
Thoughts?</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>Jom</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79599-more-ffls-needed-pittsburgh-area.html</guid>
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			<title>PA Private School Students Learn About Martial Law</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79573-pa-private-school-students-learn-about-martial-law.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:35:22 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/43281.html 
 
*Private School Students Learn About Martial Law * 
 
 
Shortly before 8:00 Tuesday...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/43281.html" target="_blank">http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewr...ves/43281.html</a><br />
<br />
<b><font size="4">Private School Students Learn About Martial Law </font></b><br />
<br />
<br />
Shortly before 8:00 Tuesday morning, a concerned parent visited the elementary school at West-Mont Christian Academy in North Coventry, Pennsylvania. After checking in at the desk, the teacher was escorted to the lobby to wait for his child’s kindergarten teacher.<br />
<br />
At some point, the parent made the “mistake” of walking upstairs to look at some of the student-produced artwork. Eventually the teacher arrived and had a “fruitful” discussion with the parent, who left.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately, the teacher who had been the parent’s original escort panicked when the visitor couldn’t be found. The administration was notified,  and at around 8:30 a.m. the children were herded into the gym, and lockdown protocols went into effect.<br />
<br />
“Police called in the Chesmont Emergency Response Team [ERT], who were training Tuesday in the township, to assist in clearing the building,” reported the Chester County, PA Daily Local. It’s not clear whether the ERT — a paramilitary police unit equipped with Pentagon-issued toys — arrived in their nifty “Peacekeeper” armored vehicle. <br />
<br />
<br />
The ERT was “assisted by three K-9 officers from North Coventry and Pottstown police departments,” continues the report. “Warwick Child Care locations on East Cedarville Road and Umer Street were both notified about the potential danger and were advised to go into lockdown.” The nearby Owen J. Roberts was also “also alerted to the situation,” but its security team — the slackers! — chose not to impose a lockdown on the student body.<br />
<br />
Nor was this the limit of the official over-reaction: “South Hanover Street, between Route 724 and Cedarville Road, was shut down by fire police as officers from area police departments, the state police and the response team surrounded the building. Area residents, while not advised by police that it was necessary to do so, were staying inside their homes and away from the scene as the response team entered the building, guns raised, at about 10:30 a.m.”<br />
<br />
Notice that this crack tactical team spent two hours dithering and skulking around the perimeter before entering the school. Had the parent whose innocuous behavior triggered this crackdown been an actual terrorist, he most likely would have finished his killing spree by the time the heroic, battle-ready ERT actually been on the scene.<br />
<br />
Remember: Whenever a shooting rampage takes place, all the police are good for is drawing chalk outlines and stringing up the crime scene tape after the victims have been slaughtered.<br />
<br />
At 11:14 — more than three hours after this exercise in police state absurdity began — the all-clear was given and the children were permitted to leave the gym.<br />
<br />
“Because of our cooperation with the police department here and our safety team that was in place, no children were at risk,” insisted school administrator Dr. James Smock. In fact, the only “risk” the children faced that morning was a result of the school’s over-reaction, which resulted in a potentially dangerous visit by over-anxious, armed tax-feeders in camouflage.</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>WhiteFeather</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79573-pa-private-school-students-learn-about-martial-law.html</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[First I've seen this]]></title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79569-first-ive-seen.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:09:08 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>I went to an estate auction last night in zelienople.  It was an estate, moved to an auction house.  They had about 10-12 long guns and 3-4 cheap...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I went to an estate auction last night in zelienople.  It was an estate, moved to an auction house.  They had about 10-12 long guns and 3-4 cheap pistols. <br />
<ul><li>First, they were making you fill out forms for everything, including long guns.  Normally, long guns are handed over and out the door.</li>
<li>Second, they were charging $25 for first gun, $8 for the second.</li>
<li>Third, they were filling out the fed form and the white PA state police form for both long guns and hand guns.  I've only ever had to fill this out for handguns before.   The guy said he just spent 3 days with PSP and 95% of dealers do it wrong.</li>
</ul><br />
It took forever to get out of there.  You needed to be a mathematician - bid + 10% premium + %sales tax + $25 fee -- I bought one of the cheap pistols, but it was not a pleasant experience and I think there are some mis-guided people out there, but I'm not a lawyer or FFL holder, only know what I've done other places.</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>huntingbeaver</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79569-first-ive-seen.html</guid>
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			<title>Recap of an evening at the gunsmiths house</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79492-recap-evening-gunsmiths-house.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:15:38 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Just thought I'd share a bit about the past evening that I spent with Bill and Gerry (not sure if they'd want their last name posted so I guess I'll...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Just thought I'd share a bit about the past evening that I spent with Bill and Gerry (not sure if they'd want their last name posted so I guess I'll omit it).<br />
<br />
A little background first: I wanted to have my trigger lightened on my S&amp;W M&amp;P40.  I picked a place I thought was close, but when I first realized that my destination was NOT 20 minutes away from Dunmore, I was a little disappointed, but that was my fault for not actually mapping it out.  So I started off a little ticked that I had to drive about an hour away.<br />
<br />
By the time I got there, I went in, and was greeted by Bill.  We had a little conversation and he asked if I wanted some coffee.  Figured that was nice, and when I got home I would throw him some rep on PAFOA.  By the end of the evening it was clear that some rep would not be enough to show my appreciation and gratitude.<br />
<br />
I had a great time at these very welcoming and friendly people's home.  When it became clear to Bill that it wouldn't be the safest or most effective idea to reduce the weight on the trigger, he told me up front and honestly that it was something he would not want to do.  He apologized relentlessly, but in all sincerity, no apology was needed.  The fact that he was honest enough to not take my money and hand me back an unsafe pistol was more than enough to justify my trip out there.<br />
<br />
I met their friend, whose name is regrettably slipping me right now (although he was wearing an Ohio State sweatshirt, as I was still sore from Penn State losing against them :p).  I got to see and hold an original military issue 1911.  And by original, I mean original.  Issued in 1902, patented in 1897.  I held a gun that was created over 100 years ago, and patented in the 19th century.  I don't know what you all might think of that, but the most prominent description running through my head was &quot;Frickin sweet!&quot;  I got to see a red dot scope in person for the first time, which again, &quot;Frickin sweet!&quot;  The conversation about guns lasted a while, and as I was expecting the conversation to end, they generously offered to cook me a meal.<br />
<br />
I tried long and hard on my trip back to think of the last time a group of strangers showed this much hospitality to me after knowing me for all of an hour.  I couldn't find another instance in my mind.  My hat is sincerely off to the both of you for showing me kindness that I wouldn't have expected at all.  The meal was delicious and the gesture was very moving for me.  After dinner I was offered coffee and pumpkin pie.  Unfortunately, I pulled the e-brake and did a 180 on my diet, but it was worth it for the great food, dessert, and wonderful conversation.  I know that the rep you are both about to receive and this thread can't truly express my gratitude, but I hope it comes close.  Again, thank you both very much for a great evening of great conversation, great food, and tremendous hospitality.<br />
<br />
Oh and the quote from the night: &quot;You can't fix stupid.&quot;  Thank you Bill and Gerry, I will be definitely using that one a lot :)</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>msquaredserver</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79492-recap-evening-gunsmiths-house.html</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA["Unfriendly" Stores, Corporations ... STOP whining and do something about it!]]></title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79491-unfriendly-stores-corporations-stop-whining-do-something-about.html</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:14:58 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[OK, major rant here .. started in the Cabela's thread and I didn't want to hijack it so I am moving it over here. 
 
The problem: Stores that have no...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>OK, major rant here .. started in the Cabela's thread and I didn't want to hijack it so I am moving it over here.<br />
<br />
The problem: Stores that have no gun or no OC policies. Don't matter one freaking bit if it is corporate policy or the local manager.<br />
<br />
The solution: Stop fucking shopping there! It's as simple as that!<br />
<br />
Sitting around whining, writing letters and making phone calls isn't going to do a freaking thing to make these idiots change their policies, the only things these people understand is profits and as long as you keep going back to them and spending your hard earned money they don't give two shits what your politics are!<br />
<br />
So how about we take the red pill and wake the fuck up! Most of the bitches are about major corporations any way. Cabelas, Wal-Mart, you name them ... you REALLY think corporate cares one fucking bit about you wanting to exercise your right to carry a gun? FUCK NO THEY DON'T. What they do care about (and the only thing they really care about) is profits, mindless sheep wandering their aisles spending every last cent they have, along with money they don't have!<br />
<br />
Secondly, for you 'major corporation freaks' .. why the HELL are you spending your money there when a good 60% of the economy (and 98% in your local economy) is based off of small business, the 'mom and pop' shops. You are all SO verbal about making this country great, about building it back up and about a grass roots revival of this country. So why the FUCK do you give your money to some company that ships it overseas, that hires people as 'cheap as they can', that will only build a store in your town if the state and local government gives them a tax break and brings you the bottom of the barrel products with little to no service? Where the hell is the pride in that?<br />
<br />
You want this country 'back'? You want to help bring a healthy economy back so as many people have jobs that want them? Yea? Well stop your whining about these huge corporations that don't give a shit about you or your community, stop wasting your time trying to change a policy that is being set in a board room of people that only want profits and their big fat bonuses for getting those profits ... spend your money with 'mom and pop' down the street. Talk to them, get to know them and when they do right by you make damn sure you tell everyone you know about them. THAT is what this country is about and THAT is what will strengthen our economy!<br />
<br />
Enough of the whining .. put your money where your mouth is!<br />
<br />
[/end rant]</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>dc dalton</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79491-unfriendly-stores-corporations-stop-whining-do-something-about.html</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA["GUN NUTS"]]></title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79443-gun-nuts.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:02:45 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>From todays Daily News.  The last three lines are the best of the whole article.  And the idiot Bryan Miller is back. 
 
...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>From todays Daily News.  The last three lines are the best of the whole article.  And the idiot Bryan Miller is back.<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/70444777.html" target="_blank">http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news.../70444777.html</a><br />
<br />
<br />
&quot;GUN NUTS&quot; and &quot;gun-hating zealots&quot; will be taking aim at each other before the Pennsylvania House Judiciary Committee today in Harrisburg (check your weapons at the door, please.)<br />
It's a public hearing for House Bill 40, which will &quot;eliminate the duty to retreat&quot; if you are confronted by an attacker, according to Dave McGlaughlin, deputy counsel to the committee, and a former Philadelphia defense attorney.<br />
<br />
As another chapter in our society's clash of cultures, HB40 will drive most Philadelphians batty and be catnip to Pennsylvanians up north and out west. <br />
<br />
The bill expands what's called the Castle Doctrine - the idea that a man's home is his castle and can be defended by any means necessary, up to and including lethal force. (In the 21st century, add &quot;woman&quot; to that description. The Castle Doctrine also applies to businesses.)<br />
<br />
HB40 says that a citizen confronted by an attacker and fearing serious bodily harm, death, kidnapping or rape can draw and blast away without fear of prosecution. This is known as the Stand Your Ground Doctrine. Current law requires the victim to first attempt to safely retreat before shooting. <br />
<br />
Realistically, it's rare for a district attorney to prosecute an honest citizen even without HB40. <br />
<br />
This presents two questions:<br />
<br />
1. Why is the law needed, if the above is true?<br />
<br />
2. If the above is true, why not make it law?<br />
<br />
<br />
 <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Here's why not, according to anti-gun advocate Bryan Miller, co-founder of Heeding God's Call, and scheduled to testify today.<br />
<br />
It's an unwelcome expansion of the Castle Doctrine, he says, &quot;to everywhere - to churches, schools, malls, everywhere, so that someone can claim they were threatened and use lethal force against the person who they claim [threatened them.]<br />
<br />
&quot;Our name for it is Judge, Jury and Executioner,&quot; he says. Other critics have called it &quot;Shoot now, ask questions later.&quot;<br />
<br />
The right of self-protection already exists, Miller says, but he sees it as limited.<br />
<br />
&quot;Walking on a street or going through a shopping mall,&quot; he says, &quot;we are protected by law and by law-enforcement officers,&quot; and that's preferable to giving lethal force to individuals.<br />
<br />
The other side is expressed by Rep. Daryl Metcalfe, a co-sponsor of the bill who hails from Butler County, about 20 miles north of Pittsburgh.<br />
<br />
He sees HB40 as merely reinstating &quot;the common-sense right of a citizen&quot; to defend himself against a threat to his life, kidnapping or rape without fear of being prosecuted or sued. <br />
<br />
Metcalfe points to lawsuits that, outrageously, have been filed by perpetrators against &quot;law-abiding citizens trying to defend themselves.&quot;<br />
<br />
Miller is correct in saying that we have police to protect us, but the crime rate tells us that police aren't omnipresent. <br />
<br />
HB40 &quot;restores rights that have been eroded away by the current judicial system that's been giving preferential treatment to criminals,&quot; says John Hohenwarter, the National Rifle Association's director of government affairs for Pennsylvania.<br />
<br />
In this state, the strongest opposition to guns comes from Philadelphia. Anything to limit or reduce guns in anyone's hands gets immediate applause.<br />
<br />
HB40 aims to give the honest citizen added legal protection, and while I can see that a few villains might try to use the law for lethal, &quot;legal&quot; revenge, I can also see that district attorneys are not dense as cheesecake. <br />
<br />
&quot;This is not an open-door, green-light to shoot,&quot; says the NRA's Hohenwarter. &quot;It still must be a justified self-defense case.&quot;<br />
<br />
<b>If HB40 passes, critics fear wild gunfire on the streets.<br />
<br />
Don't we have that in Philly now?<br />
<br />
We need criminal control more than gun control. </b></div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>theo</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79443-gun-nuts.html</guid>
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			<title>AR Mags CAN Be Installed Backwards</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79415-ar-mags-can-installed-backwards.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:02:52 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Remember the pic of the lady cop who had the mag of her AR in backwards? There were a few claims that it couldn't be done. Here's proof that it can....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Remember the pic of the lady cop who had the mag of her AR in backwards? There were a few claims that it couldn't be done. Here's proof that it can.<br />
<br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.sf2a.org/images/_vti_cnf/magazine%20backward.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
<br />
<br />
...and the proof.  Yes it CAN be done.<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VWIeK-LQc0#" target="_blank">AR15 Backwards Magazine</a></div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>Karl/PA</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79415-ar-mags-can-installed-backwards.html</guid>
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			<title>Buying a Used Handgun</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79368-buying-used-handgun.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:41:04 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>I found this interesting and useful so I thought I would share. 
 
 
---Quote--- 
_*Buying a Used Handgun*_ 
 
By Chuck Hawks 
 
This article is...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I found this interesting and useful so I thought I would share.<br />
<br />
<div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
	<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
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				<font size="3"><u><b>Buying a Used Handgun</b></u></font><br />
<br />
By Chuck Hawks<br />
<br />
This article is concerned with the purchase of used handguns by the recreational shooter. Handguns that will be used for their intended purpose, which is shooting, not with collectors' guns or wall hangers.<br />
<br />
The common reasons to purchase a used handgun are to save money or acquire a model no longer in production. For example, I own several used Colt Diamondback revolvers in .22 LR and .38 Special, all of which I purchased after the Diamondback was discontinued.<br />
<br />
Guns hold their value very well, so if you later decide to trade or sell a used gun you should be able to get pretty much what you paid for it. This is very important to those of us who have bought and sold a fair number of firearms for our personal use.<br />
<b><br />
Buy from someone that you trust</b><br />
<br />
If you are not an experienced used gun buyer, perhaps the most important thing is to buy from someone you trust. A reputable gun shop is not looking to rip you off, they are looking for repeat customers, and they should have already inspected the gun for condition and safety before putting it on the rack. They should be willing and able to give you an honest appraisal of the gun. Most will allow you to return a used gun for a refund or exchange within a reasonable period of time (like a week, not a month!) if it doesn't meet normal standards of accuracy and function. Obviously, a handgun being returned must come back in the same condition it left the store.<br />
<br />
Always test any pistol for function and accuracy with factory loads. If there is a problem, you want to be sure that reloaded ammunition cannot be blamed.<br />
<br />
I recently purchased a used Weatherby rifle from a local gun shop where I have done business for years. The owner was familiar with the history of this particular rifle, and assured me that he had seen the previous owner shoot consistent 3-shot groups of less than one inch at 100 yards. It checked out functionally perfect. We looked-up the rifle in the current issue of Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values (always do this) and agreed on a price we could both live with. Had there been a problem of some sort (there wasn't, the gun was exactly as advertised), I could have returned it without any hassle. This is the way a used gun sale is supposed to work, and it is entirely dependent on dealing with honest people.<br />
<br />
<b>Buying through the mail or Internet</b><br />
<br />
My advice to the novice used gun buyer is to avoid doing so. Don't buy any firearm you cannot inspect first. Not that there is a problem with most mail order sales, but should there be a problem you are entirely dependent of the good offices of a stranger. It is always better to deal face to face with the seller.<br />
<br />
<b>How to check the condition of a used handgun--general points</b><br />
<br />
Before handling any firearm, always open the action and verify that both the chamber and the magazine are empty. Remove the magazine if possible. Every time a firearm changes hands it should be cleared.<br />
<br />
<b>1.</b> Look at the overall condition of the gun. Notice the condition of the bluing and the overall wear. Look for rust pitting on external metal surfaces. Are the grips in good condition? All screws should be tight and the screw heads un-marred. The gun doesn't have to be perfect in every area, but it should show care rather than neglect. A pistol could be rough on the outside, yet perfect on the inside, but the chances are that an owner who didn't care for the external parts of a gun also didn't care for the parts you can't see.<br />
<br />
<b>2.</b> The size, shape and angle of the grip should fit your hand. When you bring the gun to eye level your master eye should be looking straight down on the barrel. The gun should not be tipped up or down. Having a gun that points naturally is especially important for a pistol that might be used for protection.<br />
<br />
<b>3.</b> Look carefully down the external length of the barrel to see that it looks straight and there are no subtle bulges. Don't buy any handgun if you suspect that the barrel (or the cylinder of a revolver) has been bulged, no matter how slightly, or if it is not straight. Also look at the crown of the muzzle--it should not be dinged.<br />
<br />
<b>4.</b> Note the position of the rear sight on guns with adjustable sights. If it is way off to one side, suspect some sort of problem and ask to shoot the gun to verify accuracy before purchase. If the seller refuses, pass on the gun.<br />
<br />
<b>5.</b> Check the condition of the grips. There should not be any splits, chips, or cracks in the grips, particularly if you are looking at a discontinued model (for which it may be hard to find replacement grips). Scratches in the grip finish, worn checkering, and tiny nicks in the grips will not affect the gun's function, but should lower the price.<br />
<br />
As the screws holding wood grips to the grip frame are tightened they will tend to pull deeper and deeper into the wood. Check to see that they are not about to pull clear through. This is particularly common with Ruger single action (SA) revolvers, but applies to most guns with wooden grip panels.<br />
<br />
<b>6.</b> Get permission to dry fire the gun and check the trigger pull. Dry firing will not hurt most centerfire handguns, but it is still a good idea to use snap caps to protect the firing pin.<br />
<br />
Whatever the trigger pull weight, it should be consistent from shot to shot. If it feels like a stock factory trigger (too heavy with some creep), fine, you can get it adjusted later. If it feels crisp and breaks at 2.5-3 pounds it has probably been worked on or adjusted. This is great if done properly, as it will save you some money, but make sure that the piece will not jar off.<br />
<br />
To test this, get permission to bump the butt of the cocked handgun against some firm but padded surface. The gun should not fire. Push against the fully cocked hammer (if the pistol has one) with your thumb--it should not slip out of its notch; reject the gun if it does.<br />
<br />
<b>7.</b> Check the inside of the barrel (and the chambers of a revolver's cylinder). If the barrel is dirty, ask that it be cleaned or for permission to clean it yourself. Do not oil the barrel after cleaning, and be suspicious of any barrel that has been oiled. The shine from the oil can hide minor barrel imperfections and pitting.<br />
<br />
Once the barrel is reasonably clean, dry, and oil free, open the action or remove the barrel and look into it from both ends. Use a bore light. Hopefully it will be clean and bright with sharp rifling. A slight amount of rust or pitting inside the barrel (or the cylinder of a revolver) will ordinarily not seriously degrade the performance of a handgun, unless it is a target pistol, but it should lower the used price.<br />
<br />
<b>Specific things to check on used revolvers</b><br />
<br />
<b>1.</b> Note the condition of the forcing cone at the back of the barrel. Slight erosion in this area, particularly on magnum revolvers, is not cause for concern, but it should not be seriously eroded. The more erosion you see the more the gun has been fired with heavy loads.<br />
<br />
<b>2.</b> Check for cutting of the top strap at the cylinder gap, particularly with magnum revolvers. A little erosion here will not hurt, but excessive cutting is undesirable and indicates a lot of shooting with heavy loads, or a wide cylinder gap, or both.<br />
<br />
<b>3.</b> To test the safety notch of a traditional single action revolver, pull firmly (about 8-10 pounds--this is not intended to be a test to destruction) on the trigger with the hammer in the safety notch to see if it can be easily forced. Put the revolver on half cock (the loading position) and repeat the test, applying about 5 pounds of pressure on the trigger. The hammer should not drop. This test does not apply to New Model (two screw) Ruger SA revolvers, as they use a different lockwork than traditional SA revolvers.<br />
<br />
<b>4.</b> The cylinder of Colt double action revolvers should be completely tight when the trigger is pulled all the way back (the hand forces the cylinder against the bolt). S&amp;W revolvers are never as tight as a Colt, but at least they should not rattle. Slight cylinder play is permissible with S&amp;W DA (and also Ruger SA) revolvers.<br />
<br />
<b>5.</b> Check the cylinder gap. It should not exceed .010&quot;, and .006&quot; is ideal. Cock the gun to turn the cylinder so that every chamber, in turn, lines up with the barrel. The cylinder gap should remain constant.<br />
<br />
Also, the cylinder should not slide back and forth appreciably on the cylinder pin. This is called endplay, and it generally increases with use.<br />
<br />
<b>6.</b> The crane of a swing out cylinder DA revolver should fit tight to the frame (when closed) without any unsightly gaps. If it doesn't the crane may be sprung. When you wiggle the cylinder with your fingers the crane should barely move, if at all.<br />
<br />
While you are at it, check to make sure that the ejector rod has not been bent. This is easy to see if you spin the cylinder, which should spin true.<br />
<br />
<b>7.</b> Use you fingers or thumb to put a small amount of drag on the cylinder while you manually cock the revolver (single action mode). The cylinder bolt should click into the locking notches in the cylinder, locking the cylinder in place, at the end of each segment of cylinder rotation. If it does not, the gun is out of time and needs work. Then rapidly thumb cock the gun (don't &quot;fan&quot; a revolver)--the cylinder should not rotate past the proper locking notch. Also, the bolt should not be dragging on the cylinder as it turns. If it does it will leave a clearly visible wear line in the cylinder's finish.<br />
<br />
<b>8.</b> Examine the sideplate of a DA revolver. If it has been improperly disassembled it may show pry marks at the edge or have been warped. The sideplate should fit flush and tight, without any gaps.<br />
<br />
<b>9.</b> Check the tip of the firing pin, it should be smooth and rounded, not sharp or broken. The firing pin hole should not be chipped or burred.<br />
<b><br />
Specific things to check on used semi-automatic pistols</b><br />
<br />
<b>1.</b> See that all of the controls work smoothly and with a reasonable amount of pressure. The safety should prevent the gun from firing (check by setting the safety and pulling the trigger normally). The slide lock should hold the slide open. The magazine release should release the magazine easily and yet hold it securely in place until it is pushed. If there is a grip safety the gun should not fire unless the grip safety fully depressed. If there is a magazine safety the gun should not fire unless the magazine is in place. Also, pulling the trigger should not fire the gun when the slide is held slightly out of battery.<br />
<br />
<b>2.</b> Cycle an autoloader to verify that it operates smoothly and properly. See that the slide is tight and reasonably free of slop when closed and the pistol is cocked. (There is ordinarily some play or the gun will not function.) Verify that the pistol fieldstrips and reassembles correctly. Also see that the action has been kept reasonably clean for proper functioning.<br />
<br />
<b>3.</b> Examine the slide (especially at the front and at the ejection port) and frame for excessive wear or cracks. Aluminum alloy frames are particularly susceptible to developing hairline cracks (and eventually failing) from extended use.<br />
<br />
<b>4.</b> The cocked hammer or striker of a SA auto pistol should not drop when the slide is closed smartly. If you can make the hammer drop by letting the slide slam closed the gun is unsafe.<br />
<br />
<b>5.</b> Check the magazine(s) for wear and condition. A proper magazine is very important to the functioning of an autoloading pistol. You want the original, name brand, magazine(s) in good condition. Inspect the feed lips for bends, cracks and wear, and insure that the seam at the back of the magazine is tight.<br />
<br />
Also check the bottom of the magazine to insure that it has not been ejected from the pistol and allowed to fall to the ground. This looks great on TV or at action matches, but in real life it is very hard on magazines. Magazines are not expendable.<br />
<b><br />
Conclusion<br />
</b><br />
Quality firearms are built to last for generations. This makes used guns a much better investment over time than most consumer goods. Buying a used handgun can be, and usually is, a rewarding experience. I have bought the great majority of all of the guns I have ever owned used, and I can't remember ever being burned.<br />
<br />
What I do remember is a lot of fun owning and shooting guns I could not otherwise afford. Sometimes I have even made a slight profit when it became necessary to sell a gun that I originally purchased used. (Usually because I needed the money to purchase some other used gun I could not resist.) Buy used, save money, and have more fun shooting!
			
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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>buster2209</dc:creator>
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			<title>First time at the range with my 92 Inox</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79322-first-time-range-my-92-inox.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:30:01 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Well, kind of yucky out today and the wife was over baking with the neighbor so I dicided to take my new Beretta 92INOX to the range. I took a flat...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Well, kind of yucky out today and the wife was over baking with the neighbor so I dicided to take my new Beretta 92INOX to the range. I took a flat piece of cardboard and made six 4&quot; circles on it. Hung it up at a distances of roughly 25 yards. First circle I shot with just open sights, not so good. You could tell my breathing was of but got 9 out of 15 in the circle. (DID I MENTION IT WAS REALLY COLD SO SHIVERING A BIT) Next I used my Crimson Tracer Grips, man let me tell you something 15 in each circle and never at the same circle twice in a row. I kind of rotated if you will. The pistol shot flawlessly and never missed a round, nice smooth recoil, easy to recover from. I love this gun and laser grip combination.</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>martin9428</dc:creator>
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			<title>Weapon Shield Testimonial from Bear Paw Arms</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79319-weapon-shield-testimonial-bear-paw-arms.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:22:58 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>If there is still any doubt out there about Weapon Shield...check out this testimonial I got from Bear Paw Arms in Mt. Pleasant, PA 
...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>If there is still any doubt out there about Weapon Shield...check out this testimonial I got from Bear Paw Arms in Mt. Pleasant, PA<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/files/bpa.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/files/bpa.pdf</a><br />
<br />
Their Experiences with Weapon Shield surpass even my greatest expectations! <br />
<br />
Sorry if this seems like an advertisement, but I just had to share! :)</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>RocketFoot</dc:creator>
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			<title>Newark gun buyback program ends early after funds run out</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79280-newark-gun-buyback-program-ends-early-after-funds-run-out.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:26:55 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>I always seem to catch these when they are over.  The fates just want me to have that Helwan Brigadier.  
 
 
 
---Quote--- 
Newark gun buyback...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I always seem to catch these when they are over.  The fates just want me to have that Helwan Brigadier. <br />
<br />
<br />
<div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
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				Newark gun buyback program ends early after funds run out<br />
By Sharon Adarlo/The Star-Ledger<br />
November 13, 2009, 7:30PM<br />
NEWARK -- After just two days of operation, a gun buyback program in Newark was shut down today because it ran out of money.<br />
&quot;I didn’t expect this quick turnaround,&quot; Essex County Prosecutor Paula Dow said.<br />
Sharon Adarlo/The Star-Ledger<br />
Newark police at a news conference today said they collected 339 weapons during a two-day gun buyback program held this week.<br />
The 339 firearms collected in the 48 hours depleted the $50,000 in funds that were available for the program. The last time Newark held this program, in 2005, it collected 489 weapons over a 2 1/2-month period.<br />
Dow speculated the reason for the large haul this time was the recession. People were enticed, she said, by the $200 they received for each weapon they turned in.<br />
In 2005, police were paying $50 for rifles and shotguns, $75 for semi-automatic pistols and revolvers, and $150 for automatic handguns and assault rifles.<br />
&quot;Is this a success? You tell me and look at it. It’s just two days’ effort,&quot; she said during a press conference in the police department’s property room, where the confiscated weapons are being kept.<br />
The firearms ranged from worn-looking rifles to a pocket-sized .22-caliber Derringer. Several were antiques, one dating to 1812 that required metal balls for ammunition, Newark Police Director Garry McCarthy said. There was also pistol with a 12-inch-long barrel.<br />
Sharon Adarlo/The Star-Ledger<br />
A gun collected in the buyback program in Newark.<br />
The &quot;Gun Amnesty Buyback&quot; program was held Wednesday and Thursday at the Emanuel Christian Church on North Seventh Street. People could bring in a weapon, no questions asked, and pocket $200 per gun with up to three weapons per person, authorities said.<br />
Additional days were scheduled for this month and next at other city churches.<br />
The Prosecutor’s Office and the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas or HIDTA, a federal program, originally provided the money. Dow said the prosecutor’s contribution was taken from forfeiture funds, which were collected from criminal cases.<br />
Dow said she hopes more funding can be secured for future buybacks. Perhaps as early as next month.<br />
&quot;This is just another step to stem the tide,&quot; McCarthy said. &quot;We don’t know how many lives we have saved with taking these guns off the streets.&quot;
			
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</div><a href="http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/newark_gun_buyback_program_end.html" target="_blank">http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...ogram_end.html</a></div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>granuale</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79280-newark-gun-buyback-program-ends-early-after-funds-run-out.html</guid>
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			<title>2010 MPOETC Training - Any Info?</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79272-2010-mpoetc-training-any-info.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:37:12 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I just bumped into our police chief.  He said he was scheduling the training for the 2010 MPOETC update. 
 
It didn't dawn on me until he left, but I...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I just bumped into our police chief.  He said he was scheduling the training for the 2010 MPOETC update.<br />
<br />
It didn't dawn on me until he left, but I should have asked if he knew what was in it.  Do any of our LEOs know?  Any carry issues listed?<br />
<br />
Just curious.  I want to keep my eye on the ball, you know...</div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>Paradigm</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79272-2010-mpoetc-training-any-info.html</guid>
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			<title>The Gun Insurance Act of 2009</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79265-gun-insurance-act-2009-a.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:20:37 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>With Congress tied up over health reform -- legislation whose initial, much-discussed goal was to extend health insurance to as many as 47 million...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>With Congress tied up over health reform -- legislation whose initial, much-discussed goal was to extend health insurance to as many as 47 million uninsured Americans -- this may be as good a time as any to propose another, less divisive reform. <br />
<br />
The FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimated in 2008 that more than 250 million guns were owned by U.S. citizens. Since President Obama's election last November, newspapers and electronic media have reported a sharp increase in U.S. gun sales, spurred by rumors that the new administration had secret plans to block gun sales to law-abiding Americans. <br />
<br />
Normally, about 4.5 million guns are sold in the United States each year, so this surge in sales means that Americans own roughly 260 million guns, in a population of nearly 309 million. <br />
<br />
Surveys indicate that gun ownership is not spread evenly across U.S. households. In fact, chances are that a substantial proportion of U.S. gun owners have more than one weapon, so it's quite possible that fewer than 200 million Americans own those 260 million guns. That means there may be more than 100 million citizens left unprotected against their gun-owning fellow citizens. <br />
<br />
Surely everyone can agree that this is an outrage. Moreover, it is an outrage that Congress can easily fix, without months of committee meetings, town halls or tea parties. All that is required is a bipartisan, pro-constitutional bill to extend the Second Amendment's protection of gun ownership to all Americans, whether they like it or not. <br />
<br />
Under such legislation -- let's call it the Gun Insurance Act of 2009 -- every American would be required to buy some kind of gun. Those who cannot afford even the simplest weapon -- say, those whose 2009 annual income is less than twice the federal poverty level -- could be issued $500 vouchers that would be valid only at gun shops or gun shows, and would have to be used before the 2010 Census. (Just think: What a stimulus to private enterprise all these gun sales would provide, and how many new gun-selling jobs would be created!) <br />
<br />
<br />
How would the law be enforced? Census takers could verify that everyone they count has a weapon in working condition, and those census takers who survive could report all non-complying Americans to the FBI so it could notify local police departments, which would issue citations for whatever fines Congress chooses to impose. (Note that this proposed legislation would not require creating any new bureaucracy, public option or death panels.) Of course, illegal immigrants would not receive vouchers, would not be required to buy guns and would not be counted in the Census. <br />
<br />
So there it is: a modest proposal even Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley can agree on. If we're willing to require people to buy health insurance, why not require them to buy guns? Sure, maybe the Congressional Budget Office could overestimate its cost, and some wimpy liberals could file a court challenge, but the Supreme Court would slap it down on a clear 5-to-4 vote. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, here's one issue where you can count on at least a couple of Republican votes. <br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/16/AR2009111602635.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns" target="_blank">The Washington Post</a></div>

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			<category domain="http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/">General</category>
			<dc:creator>ALS</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79265-gun-insurance-act-2009-a.html</guid>
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			<title>Wilmington Liquor Store Clerk Kills Alleged Robber</title>
			<link>http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/79260-wilmington-liquor-store-clerk-kills-alleged-robber.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:55:06 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[http://cbs3.com/topstories/wilmington.liquor.store.2.1319572.html 
 
PHILADELPHIA (AP) &#8213;      
 
Police say a clerk at a Wilmington liquor store shot...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><a href="http://cbs3.com/topstories/wilmington.liquor.store.2.1319572.html" target="_blank">http://cbs3.com/topstories/wilmingto...2.1319572.html</a><br />
<br />
PHILADELPHIA (AP) &#8213;     <br />
<br />
Police say a clerk at a Wilmington liquor store shot and killed a robber, but his two accomplices are at large.<br />
<br />
Police say three masked men told the 55-year-old clerk at Favors Liquor Store that he was being robbed at about 9:30 p.m.<br />
<br />
Tuesday. When two of them pulled guns and ordered the clerk to the back of the store, he exchanged fire with them.<br />
<br />
At least one of the men was hit. He staggered outside and collapsed on the sidewalk and was pronounced dead later at Christiana Hospital.</div>

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			<dc:creator>PocketProtector</dc:creator>
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