Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum - Open Carry http://forum.pafoa.org en Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:47:00 GMT vBulletin 60 http://forum.pafoa.org/images/misc/rss.jpg Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum - Open Carry http://forum.pafoa.org Open Carry Hiking Club http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110962-open-carry-hiking-club.html Thu, 09 Sep 2010 04:01:00 GMT Anyone interested in getting together for some hiking trips around PA? Thought it might be a neat idea. Anyone interested in getting together for some hiking trips around PA? Thought it might be a neat idea. ]]> Open Carry t1m0thy http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110962-open-carry-hiking-club.html Guy at work http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110916-guy-work.html Wed, 08 Sep 2010 21:21:15 GMT So I am at work and I talk about the things one isn't supposed to. Well I was talking firearms around 3 other people (one female) and all either owned firearms and liked to shoot. I mentioned OC and one guy said it was illegal, well a quick turn o the laptop to pafoa and he emailed himself the link to read up.

Wootles. ]]> Open Carry Elmar http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110916-guy-work.html OC Lawsuit http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110844-oc-lawsuit.html Wed, 08 Sep 2010 02:05:51 GMT First, sorry if someone posted this already; my search skills are not that great.
Second, People state OC'ing in Fithaldelphia is rough, imagine San Francisco,
Third, I hope this guy wins. I would be nice to have any shall issue in Commifornia

Quote:
After San Francisco school officials refused to allow local programmer Kevin Hall to carry a sidearm near Grattan School in Cole Valley, he sued in federal court Thursday demanding respect for what he calls his Second Amendment rights.

"I want to open carry in San Francisco, but there are schools all over the place," said Hall, in reference to California's Gun Free School Zone Act of 1995. "The law says you can't carry within 1,000 feet. There's one 925 feet from my front door. So I can't walk out my front door with a gun."

Matt SmithYou get an "A" for armed and dangerous...​By press time, a school district spokeswoman had not returned calls requesting comment on Hall's Aug. 26 federal district court lawsuit. Nor had Grattan principal Jean Robertson.

Lest they worry Hall will begin walking the neighborhood guns ablazin', the plaintiff, who works as a software engineer with Santa Clara startup LiveOps, said he's more interested in Constitutional principle than shooting Grattan's principal.

"I put down in the suit that it's for self-defense," said Hall. "In some sense, that's true. But in another sense, it's just that I can't do it. But the government has assured us that we can under the Constitution. If they had said, 'You can do it,' I probably wouldn't be interested."

Under the Gun Free School Zone Act, Hall was required to request a special permit from the school district in order to carry a firearm near Grattan Elementary.

"They denied me," he said. "I feel like my fundamental rights according to the U.S. Supreme Court have been denied. I have no choice at this point other than to file for redress and get the court to overturn School District has done."

Hall notes that if he were to win his suit, and an anti-open carry bill now being pushed by Assemblyman Tom Ammiano were to pass, the juxtaposition of new laws would create a bizarre situation where people could not carry sidearms -- unless they were near a school. That's because Ammiano's anti-sidearm bill includes an exemption for people who've been issued permits allowing them to carry near schools. According to the bill's text, the ban wouldn't include:
The open carrying of an unloaded handgun within a school zone, as defined in Section 626.9, with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority.
Hall's suit, meanwhile, demands that the School District be required to issue such permits.

Holster up, kids.
From:

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/...rry_school.php

Edited to add:

I just looked at the cartoons that accompany the article. Talk about media bias. The media ti just another extension of the anti-Bill of Rights crowed, unless it is for the 1st then it's ok ]]> Open Carry Fraggle09027 http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110844-oc-lawsuit.html Training PA officers view of OCing http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110836-training-pa-officers-view-ocing.html Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:47:15 GMT I was just at the range shooting the new 1911 and meet a cop who was training with his new gun. I got to talking to him and about his gun and got... I was just at the range shooting the new 1911 and meet a cop who was training with his new gun. I got to talking to him and about his gun and got into the conversation of CCing and he told me that OCing was legal and told him that I do it from time to time. We starting talking about OCing and what he thought about it. He said that they are looking for trouble, trying to give cops a hard time, or show offs. I tried to explain the reason why people open carry and that its our right to OC and that the more people that OC the more its going to be accepted. I just thought it was interesting to get a cops point of view. What bothers me though is that he just started training and already has a negative view on OCing.

I'm not bashing at all just wanted to give my experience about the encounter. He was really nice guy and don't want to give a negative view of him at all. It was also good to see a officer training more than he has to on his own time. ]]> Open Carry lightsdarkness http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110836-training-pa-officers-view-ocing.html The most negative reaction I have gotten yet... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110776-most-negative-reaction-i-have-gotten-yet.html Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:16:17 GMT I guess I posted too soon. Last night I made a post about how I had been getting very frequent comments from all sorts of people in all sorts of... I guess I posted too soon. Last night I made a post about how I had been getting very frequent comments from all sorts of people in all sorts of places over the past couple of weeks, and how they had all been positive. My good comment streak came to a screeching halt this morning at breakfast.

Our weekend was anything but restful and enjoyable. Our daughter and family limped in around midnight on Friday with serious engine trouble after a five hour drive. The rest of the weekend was spent visiting various auto parts stores while my son-in-law the mechanic tore the engine down to replace an intake gasket, as well as a couple of other things that needed work. Getting it running was not working, and as a last resort, we had rented a tow dolly to tow them home so he could get to work today and work on the car at his convenience. Literally, at the last minute he found the last problem and got their car running right, and I was off the hook for a tow trip to Ohio.

So this morning Mrs. Plinker and I returned the dolly, and decided to go to a new place we found for a nice relaxing breakfast. We figured it would be quiet, slow, and give us a little bit of rest from all the frantic activity of the past few days. Alas, it was not to be. We walked in, sat down, and gave the lady our order. Having already imbibed a large quantity of coffee before I arrived, I needed a visit to the men's room. As I crossed the room, I saw a man I know from one of the clubs I belong to, and waved in greeting, which he returned. He was sitting with two other men I did not recognize.

I returned to my table and resumed my conversation with my wife. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw one of the men who was sitting with my acquaintance get up and start towards me. He stopped a couple of tables away, and started speaking in my direction with a very angry look on his face. I could not hear him because of the background noise, and I was not even sure he was speaking to me at first, since there were several other people between us. So I ignored him. That made him even madder. I finally discerned that he was staring at me, so I said,

"Are you talking to me?" And no, I was not thinking of Robert De Niro. :p

"WHY DID YOU BRING A GUN IN HERE!?!" :mad:

"I brought it in case I need it. Why are you shouting at me?" :mad: I gave him the evil eye right back. I'm sitting in a restaurant with my wife, and a whole bunch of other people, and this guy is shouting at me from about 15 feet away. I did not raise my voice any more than was needed to overcome the background noise. After I asked him why he was shouting, he shook his head, and returned to his table, but did not sit down. He called the waitress over, and started speaking and waving his arms in a very animated manner. He then produced a handful of cash and thrust it at her before turning to stomp out the door. As he passed by my table and was behind Mrs. Plinker, he raised his arm and and flipped me off. In my calmest manner, I told him he was a very brave man. He mumbled something and off he went. Clearly the man was not frightened, and he was not really concerned about what a man with a gun might do. Physically he was much smaller, and appeared to be older than me, and that didn't seem to factor into anything. He was just plain old angry, and apparently very confident that he could make moves and gestures intended to start a fight in a lot of places with complete impunity.

There was very little reaction to what had passed between us. Most of the people in there were older than we are, some of them significantly so, and so I don't think most of them even noticed or heard anything. None of the staff approached me or mentioned anything about the incident, and the waitress (who was serving both our tables) was just as cheerful as she had been when we walked in. She did mention that she was reading the PAFOA logo on my shirt.

My acquaintance and the other man with him left a couple of minutes later. As they passed by our table, he patted me on the back and said hello again. I asked him what was up with his buddy. He shrugged his shoulders, took a step back and raised his arms in the air in a very definite gesture of separating himself from the issue, and said, "I have no idea what's with him." And that was it. We finished our breakfast, left a big tip as we always do, paid our bill with no comments from the staff, and went our way. I was on the lookout as we walked out the door, but then I always am anyway. This time I was looking for a scrawny little guy with a bad attitude though. :p He was nowhere to be seen. ]]> Open Carry PennsyPlinker http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110776-most-negative-reaction-i-have-gotten-yet.html In the past few days... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110735-past-few-days.html Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:59:25 GMT I have been in several places of business, some I frequent, and a few I have never been in before. Over the course of these past few days, I have... I have been in several places of business, some I frequent, and a few I have never been in before. Over the course of these past few days, I have been approached more times than I have in the past several months regarding open carry. And every single encounter has been the same.

"I'm glad to see someone carrying a sidearm openly."

That is all. :D

Oh yeah - Happy Socialist Workers Day. ]]> Open Carry PennsyPlinker http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110735-past-few-days.html Who Was OCing in Wexford, PA Last Monday? http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110724-who-ocing-wexford-pa-last-monday.html Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:35:58 GMT I was in the Pittsburgh area last week, visiting family. Last Monday at about 11:30 am - noon, I went to an Eat-n-Park in Wexford off of State Route... I was in the Pittsburgh area last week, visiting family. Last Monday at about 11:30 am - noon, I went to an Eat-n-Park in Wexford off of State Route 910. As I was exiting the restaurant I noticed a man open carrying. I thanked him, and he thanked me for noticing. He was with a boy in his teens.

About Pittsburgh, the people are courteous and friendly. They made my visit pleasant. Thanks, Pittsburgh people!!!!! ]]> Open Carry LisaA http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110724-who-ocing-wexford-pa-last-monday.html <![CDATA[My Dad saw an OC'er]]> http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110698-my-dad-saw-ocer.html Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:15:37 GMT So it looks as though you can spur people to educate themselves when OC'ing, even if you were unaware of their presence.

My dad was at the East Freedom Wallmart and saw a "huge dude with a big ole' revolver" in the sporting goods section. I didn't know that my dad was unaware that OC was legal in PA. Apparently he was very intrigued by this and looked into it himself online. He then was telling me about it a few days later; We had a wonderful discussion about Open Carry, Gun Rights, 2A, etc... I just thought it was interesting that somebody inspired him to educate himself on the subject just by their presence. ]]> Open Carry jshwak http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110698-my-dad-saw-ocer.html First OC sighting in Hanover http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110678-first-oc-sighting-hanover.html Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:19:58 GMT So, I'm at W.E. Sells in Hanover picking up my Parker & Hale from the gunsmith (had the barrel floated) and noticed my first other OC'er! :cool:

I was way too intent on checking out mah baby plus he was wrapping up his conversation and walking out the door. Anyone from here was at W.E. Sells Saturday? ]]> Open Carry jhbenson4 http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110678-first-oc-sighting-hanover.html OC fashion statements http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110659-oc-fashion-statements.html Mon, 06 Sep 2010 05:04:22 GMT So, some people don't like Slipknot shirts; that we've seen. I am wearing a Star Wars t-shirt, a cowboy hat, jeans and some Sketcher shoes. Do you think I look suspicious?:D

The Death Star on my shirt might people feel threatened...oh noes.:eek:

Anywho, what are some weird outfits you have found yourself wearing while OC? ]]> Open Carry t1m0thy http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110659-oc-fashion-statements.html Positive LEO encounter http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110653-positive-leo-encounter.html Mon, 06 Sep 2010 03:37:17 GMT So, I'm in the Lowes the other day, returning some crap. And there is a guy standing next to me. Dressed pretty much like me - camo shorts, t-shirt, holding some Dewalt case in one hand and his wallet in other. Looks at my gun and says (in quite friendly way):

- You open carry, huh? :)
- Yup, why not :)
- Well, it draws lots of attention. :)
- Not sure, frankly, you are the first one who noticed it for the past several months.
- I guess it's professional (at this point he flips his wallet and flashes his badge)
- Ah, I see. Our township or neighbor? :)
- Neighbor... So, it looks like Springfireld, right?
- Indeed. XD9 Compact, I like it!
- Nice!
So at this point I'm getting my return receipt and heading out:
- Allright, it was nice talking to you, have a nice day!
- You too.

And so, here was my very first OC LEO encounter. I'd say it went really well. ]]> Open Carry Metz http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110653-positive-leo-encounter.html Bump in the Night.... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110640-bump-night.html Mon, 06 Sep 2010 00:01:27 GMT I live in a very rural community. On an early Thursday morning from my bed I heard a _loud_ bang that sounded like a door being kicked in. I... I live in a very rural community.

On an early Thursday morning from my bed I heard a loud bang that sounded like a door being kicked in.

I retrieved my .40 and debated whether to assume a proactive stance or maintain a defensive position at the top of the stairs in my house.

I decided to creep downstairs and check the main entrance - nothing.

I checked all of the windows; all were secure.

Finally, I went down the cellar steps only to find all OK.

I checked out the whole house.

Some months earlier 2 guys tried to break in to a neighbors house (older lady) by propping up a ladder, so I was concerned.

I never found out what the noise was but was able to get back to sleep with confidence. My wife never woke up.

What would I have done without my pistol and, just suppose, that it was what it sounded like?!

Anyone want to debrief me on with what you might have done? ]]> Open Carry Hokkmike http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110640-bump-night.html Another lovely interaction http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110571-another-lovely-interaction.html Sat, 04 Sep 2010 23:49:40 GMT So, I went for a stroll to get some Chinese food today - OC, as always. ;) After placing my order, I sat on a bench right outside. While fiddling... So, I went for a stroll to get some Chinese food today - OC, as always. ;)

After placing my order, I sat on a bench right outside. While fiddling with Facebook from my smartphone, a police cruiser pulls up, circles around, and parks. The female officer gets out and walks over. In a friendly manner, I waved a hello, and smiled.

"So I guess you know why I'm here?"
"Yes I do."
"You got ID?" This was said with a subtle hint of attitude.
"Yep."
"May I see it?"
Because I did not appreciate the tone of her voice, I said, "I don't need to identify myself to you."
"Yes you do - I'm investigating a complaint. Let me see your ID."
I took a moment to think about how to phrase the next thing I was going to say. "I don't need to identify myself to you - and now, this mere encounter is terminated. Have a great weekend and I hope you enjoy your holiday."

This did not sit well with her. There was about ten seconds of silence while she (I assume) stared at my skull when I went back to fiddling with my phone.

"So you're not going to identify yourself to me?"
"I have no legal obligation to do so, so, no."
"Yes you do! You need to provide identification to a police officer when they ask for it."
"Until you decide to change this from a mere encounter to a Terry stop, I don't have to do a thing. Now have a nice evening."
"This is NOT a mere encounter! I am investigating a complaint, and you need to show me some ID!"

Instead of continuing to argue with her, I went back to my phone again.

After a few more seconds of her participating in a staring contest with my scalp, she strode over to her cruiser. A few moments later, a second car, from another township, pulls up, and an older, much...kinder, for lack of a better phrase, looking officer steps out. He asks,

"Is there any particular reason you won't identify yourself to this officer?"
"I don't need a reason. I don't have to show her my papers."
"You have to provide ID upon lawful demand."
"Not unless I'm being detained. If that's all you have to ask me about, I think we're through here."

This went back and forth a few more times, and I got the whole, "I don't know you from Adam" schpeel, which came on the tails of a comment along the lines of, "You just have an attitude so you can exploit this online!", which seemed kindof contradictory to me. Well, here it is. :)

Since they weren't going away and I was getting pretty annoyed, I ultimately gave her my name, then refused to give her my address or date of birth when she asked for them. The other officer mentioned that if I just show them ID when they ask for it, we won't have these kinds of confrontations. As they were getting into their squad cars, their oppressive nature got the better of me and I apologized to the female officer (okay, maybe I was a little bit quick to jump on the "leave me alone" wagon).

Since I am pretty sure that the local police like to follow my threads on here, I hope they also read the following line - forthwith, if you ask me for my identification, and I am not doing something that requires I have a license to do it, nor do you suspect me of committing or having committed any crimes, I will not furnish my ID, nor will I verbally identify myself to you. If you don't stop questioning me after I tell you that the Mere Encounter is terminated (and don't insult my intelligence by telling me it's "not" a Mere Encounter), I will consider further interaction to be harassment. I'm sick and tired of the police telling me that, despite what the law says they have the power to do, they can do whatever the fuck they want, simply because they have a shiney little tin badge.

Flame suit = ON. ]]> Open Carry ViperGTS19801 http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110571-another-lovely-interaction.html <![CDATA["old timers" at the hardware store "someone told me you could carry like that"]]> http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110554-old-timers-hardware-store-someone-told-me-you-could-carry-like.html Sat, 04 Sep 2010 18:39:39 GMT Had to hit the local hardware store this morning for a new brush so I can finish finishing my front porch floor. Now I am in this place constantly... Had to hit the local hardware store this morning for a new brush so I can finish finishing my front porch floor. Now I am in this place constantly and never as much as a peep has been said about the gun before but as I was paying one of the old timers that works there said (from behind me) "Someone told me you could carry like that". I turned and said:

"yup, open carry is 100% legal in Pa, basically because there is no law making it illegal". The guy that was ringing me up, the owner, stopped, looked at me and said "what? say that again". I said "there is no law specifically stating that the open carry of firearms is illegal within the state, so since there is no law saying you can't it is by default legal"

Anyways, he got it and we started talking. Went through the entire speech and then answered questions from both of them like "so if I store it properly for transport and I don't have a license I can then take it out of the car once parked, strap it on and walk around?" BTW, the store owner does not have his LTCF but the older guy did.

Also told them about this years training memo when they asked about getting hassled, told them the horror stories from Philly and few more odds and ends when the first guy mentioned HB 40 (said he read about it in the NRA magazine) Told them it was being held up in committee but a petition was being signed to pull it out and have a floor vote. Then we got into whether Rendell would sign it yadda yadda. Told them both they should really take the time to contact their reps and help push this.

About this time the old timer starts looking at the Kimber REALLY close and says "Is that thing cocked", I said of course it is it's a 1911, that's how you carry them "cocked locked and ready to rock" the guy steps back and says "Oh yeah, single action"

I went out to the car to get them fliers and sure enough I was out of them but when I came back in the conversation turned to reciprocity, which neither of them new we had so I ran through as many states as I could think of and then told them about the Utah license that got them a ton more states.

The owner asked about going into an 'unfriendly state' and I went through that with him (the transport through an unfriendly state to another friendly state) and specifically warned both of them about NJ and NY.

Had to run but sure as shit when I got home I realized I didn't have enough steel wool for the job so I grabbed fliers and hopped in the car, only to have the damn dog charge one of the front dining room windows when I pulled out and smashed the window all over the front yard. Well now I REALLY have to go back to the store. Took some measurements and off I went. As the one was cutting my new glass I gave them both fliers and told them to take a look at them and the sites listed on them, both seemed very interested (especially the old timer who was an NRA member but obviously didn't understand Pa. laws at all). Back home and window repair time (oh joy)

So not just an OC event, it included HB 40, reciprocity, traveling and a whole bunch more. Will have to see what they have to say next time I need to stop in. ]]> Open Carry dc dalton http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110554-old-timers-hardware-store-someone-told-me-you-could-carry-like.html Had to pull a gun on somebody while camping http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110490-had-pull-gun-somebody-while-camping.html Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:37:43 GMT I finally decided to post about this experience now that I'm reasonably sure nothing more is going to come of it.

A couple months ago, right after moving to Sugar Notch I was out camping in the woods behind the town. I was there with my two boys, the wife, my mom, my sister, brother-in-law, and my nephew. Our camping area was overlooking a large field where a lot of people rode four wheelers and dirt bikes. All day and into the night, there were many four wheelers and dirt bikes and groups of people out mudding in the general area. We had our campsite on the edge of the woods surrounded on two sides by forest and the side of a mountain. On the other two sides we parked our cars in front to make an obvious barrier. There was a small hill that led up to our camping area. This was not a camping ground and we were the only ones camping (at least in that general area that we knew of).

At around 1 am when we were all ready to get to bed and the kids had been in bed for hours, we saw about eight sets of headlights line up in a row and start revving their engines all at once. They then started racing toward our camp area. My mother was scared and was yelling to me and my brother-in-law. We came to where our vehicles were at and watched them come toward us. I unlocked my car with my remote which turned on the headlights toward them and started waving my arms at them in an attempt to get them to stop. They kept coming.

They got to the bottom of the hill that our camping area sat on and drove up. I was yelling at them to stop, as was my brother-in-law and mother (My wife and sister had gone back to my house for something). They then drove between our cars. Some of them were yelling, but the sound of all these engines was deafening. A jeep was a bit ahead of the others and heading toward me. I glanced back and to my horror noticed they were also heading directly toward the tent where the three kids were sleeping. I put my left hand against the bumper of the jeep and yelled as loud as I could to stop. He then pushed me with his vehicle.

At this point, I felt I had no other choice and I drew my gun, activated the tac light and pointed it at the driver of the jeep. He immediately stopped and put his hands in the air. The other vehicles all stopped nearly immediately. I told him to leave. He just stood there frozen. I could also tell for the first time that he was obviously drunk. He then turned off his engine and he got out of his car, as did a few other drivers.

Half the vehicles drove off immediately. Good. I yelled at the rest of them to leave. The driver that I drew on immediately started apologizing and saying he only wanted a beer. At this point I lowered my weapon (but did not holster it) now that the immediate threat had subsided... well somewhat. I told him to stay back and he complied. The other drivers in the car started saying basically the same thing that they just wanted a beer. It was a misunderstanding, etc. etc. I told them that we don't want any problems and that they should just go back to where they came from.

They started apologizing again and all started talking at once. They did not crowd me, so I holstered my weapon. All in all, it took about ten minutes of talking to these guys to get them to leave. Most, if not all, of them had been drinking. I chose not to contact the police because I had just drawn my firearm and did not want the hassles that came with that. Otherwise, I certainly would have. We packed up our campsite and left. I didn't want to chance them coming back.

I was also very clear with them before they left that they could have easily gotten shot by doing that. A small argument started when one guy said I was out of line (or something to that effect) for pulling a deadly weapon on his friend. I was quick to let them know that a vehicle is most certainly a deadly weapon.

I honestly don't know how that night would have ended if I did not have my gun with me. What if he hadn't stopped his jeep and ran into my tent? What if their true intentions weren't to just have a beer with us?

Anyhow, I just wanted to share this story with you guys. I really wanted to write about it right after it happened, but figured it was prudent to see if anything came of it first before making it permanent on the internet. ]]> Open Carry max384 http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/110490-had-pull-gun-somebody-while-camping.html