Overcharged for LTCF? It's time to act (Updates Page 23)

[knight0334]

What bugs the living crap out of me is that, as either Dannytheman or Soberbyker noted, the AG washes his hands of having any jurisdiction over what the county sheriffs do, even though they may be pissing on state statute. Reminds me of Julius Ceasar ~2K years ago...

In PA the AG has no legal authority over Sheriff's. He can only pursue certain issues, and give legal opinion over certain laws in which he was allowed.

In most other states the Sheriff is part of the executive branch as an enforcer of the law, in PA he is only a glorified bailiff and an arm of the judicial branch.

[JayG23]

I gotta say, it is true that the "License" is the non-physical permission and the physical piece of paper or plastic is merely the proof that you have been granted permission.

For comparison, think of auto insurance. That piece of paper isn't the actual insurance, it is only the proof of insurance.

Another element that could support that perspective... I've only applied for my first ltcf this past week, so I don't have one to look at, but I would not be at all surprised to see "Property of PA State Police and must be surrendered upon demand" printed on it. Just like various other ID cards and access cards. Can we get a yea or nay on if that is on there?

As far as the issue of paper or plastic, and what's covered under the undefined modernization fee... Just exactly what level of "modern" is covered? Having a statewide database of all current and past CC permitted persons accessible to all police stations between ohio and the delaware river is fairly modern, and that's part of the paper tag. Or does it include the magnetic strip, which requires a fairly modern portable electronic encoding/decoding device mounted in the cruiser unit. Not to mention layering of laminate media prepared in such a way as to create a variable holographic special visual effect for security purposes without compromising other photographic identification, which can be said to be pretty modern. What about the PDF417 format bar code on the back, which can actually hold quite a bit more information than is shown on the front of the pa driver's license and brings with it all the modernity of the portable scanner and the universal statewide database. And last but not least, what about embedded chips? RFID chips are pretty damn cheap now, if used in bulk, and reading your ltcf rfid chip straight from your pocket several feet away is quite modern.

My point is, there is nothing to be squeezed from the "It's covered in the modernification fee" argument from either side. It's defined vaguely and can be reasonably applied to as little as a never-forget database of who has had ltcf permission in the past to as much as a triple-layer securecard that can't be counterfeited without a serious materials lab.

I personally don't care that my ltcf cost $35 instead of $25. I'd rather pony up that bit extra and figure the sheriff's office can pop off a few more rounds in practice, or get the non-sandpaper toilet paper for the bathroom, or get the photocopier/printer new toner instead of messy cheaper refills, or any number of other little things that just piss people off and keep them in a bad mood. Should one of us need to draw sometime, I would rather NOT have the responding LEOs under the impression that the concealed carry folks in the area are a bunch of cheapskates with rear ends so tight they squeak when walking... just because a big pile of letters showed up demanding refunds.

[MDJschool]

1. A sheriff must issue the original paper license prescribed by the PSP every time a LTCF is granted.

"An individual . . . may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm[.]" 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(b). "The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth[,] . . . on a . . . one page . . . application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(c). "[A] fee is payable to the sheriff to whom the application is submitted and is payable at the time of application for the license." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(h)(5). "In addition to fees described in [18 Pa.C.S. 6109(2)(ii) ('An additional temporary fee of $5')] and [18 Pa.C.S. 6109(3) ('An additional fee of $1'), the fee for a license to carry a firearm is $19." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(h)(1). "A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(h)(7). "Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license[.]" 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(g). "A license to carry a firearm . . . shall be issued if . . . it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(1).

"The commissioner may establish form specifications and regulations, consistent with section 6109(c) (relating to licenses), with respect to uniform forms control, including the . . . [l]icense to carry firearms." 18 Pa.C.S. 6124(1). "The license to carry a firearm shall be designed to be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be in a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(3). "The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms . . . form, shall be constructed as a three-part form, 3 inches by 5 3/8 inches in dimension, on white paper." 37 Pa.Code. 33.115. "The [Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms] form[] ha[s] been promulgated by the State Police under authority of the act and this subpart[,] . . . available from the State Police." 37 Pa.Code. 33.131. "The license shall bear the . . . signature of the licensee." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(3)(i). "[T]he original shall be issued to the licensee. . . . The first copy shall be transmitted by the [sheriff] . . . to the State Police. . . . The second copy shall be retained by the [sheriff][.]" 37 Pa.Code. 33.115. "This chapter is promulgated under the authority contained in the [Uniform Firearms] act, and will be prosecuted as a violation of the act." 37 Pa.Code. 33.122. "Except as otherwise specifically provided, an offense under this subchapter constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree." 18 Pa.C.S. 6119. "If any county officer neglects or refuses to perform any duty imposed on him . . . by the provisions of any . . . act of Assembly . . . or other provision of law, he shall, for each such neglect or refusal, be guilty of a misdemeanor[.]" 16 P.S. 411.

Above is the definition of a lawfully issued license. Validity of one's licensure will doubtfully be an issue by preliminary hearing where, regardless of the sheriff's failure to follow the law regarding form, he will testify that he issued you a license, and you have one to enter into evidence.

There is, however, a question I believe unresolved, not on the matter that strict matter that the license issued must be the original paper license prescribed by the PSP, but rather the 'optional' picture-requirement provision. "The sheriff may also require a photograph of the licensee on the license." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(3). Nothing demands the sheriff take the photograph; can he offer the service and charge? To opt into the (e)(3) requirement, does a sheriff have to follow some process, as might be done for an agency to promulgate regulations, or a municipality to enact a speed limit, rather than just expect a photograph at a whim? The provision is also written as if it were on a per-applicant basis; can he pick and choose who must have a photo?

The sheriff would have no authority to issue licenses to carry firearms if the legislature had not enacted 18 Pa.C.S. 6109. That being the case, what constitutional, statutory, or common law authority would a sheriff had to issue an 'improved' representation of licensure, or a system of phototaking and its subsequent fee? An injunction could be had over such things.

For reference:
The UFA
Chapter 33 of Title 37 of the Pennsylvania Code
[url=http://www.lgc.state.pa.us/laws.html]About municipal codes[url]

* * *

I'd like to see a "Hold Your Sheriff Accountable Day" where several people in several counties have agreed to file a summary private criminal complaint on the same day to alert the several sheriffs that they have been found in violation of the law and will be prosecuted. Needing no DA approval, I assume conviction should come easily (the offense rather straightforward and the evidence forthcoming, as ignorance of the law is no excuse) unless the affiant really fucks up. For naysayers who think that there are more important things to worry about and that we shouldn't 'ruin it for everyone', there's really not too much chance of a negative side effect. The worst results are that a sheriff is aquitted, or some sheriff presents some argument ('non-delegation' being the first that comes to my mind without judging its validity) and it catches on in lower courts across the state, or that someone lops in a request that the sheriff be removed from office immediately upon conviction for misbehavior in office and a judge denies that which then catches on in lower courts across the state.

Even if you guys totally blow up the criminal prosecution method(s), then that still leaves civil stuff.

[andrewjs18]

so what is the recourse for folks who paid the $46 who were never given the paper LTCF and who did not have a choice on which to choose..I'm sorry, but I'd rather laminate my LTCF and save the $21 then get a plastic LTCF.

[mrjam2jab]

There is, however, a question I believe unresolved, not on the matter that strict matter that the license issued must be the original paper license prescribed by the PSP, but rather the 'optional' picture-requirement provision. "The sheriff may also require a photograph of the licensee on the license." 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(e)(3). Nothing demands the sheriff take the photograph; can he offer the service and charge? To opt into the (e)(3) requirement, does a sheriff have to follow some process, as might be done for an agency to promulgate regulations, or a municipality to enact a speed limit, rather than just expect a photograph at a whim? The provision is also written as if it were on a per-applicant basis; can he pick and choose who must have a photo?

Actually, that now reads...

18 6108(e) <Text of subsec. (e)(4) effective upon publication of the notice under 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6109(h)(2) or five years and 60 days [Jan. 10, 2011], whichever is first.>
(4) The sheriff shall require a photograph of the licensee on the license. The photograph shall be in a form compatible with the Commonwealth Photo Imaging Network.

[MDJschool]

so what is the recourse for folks who paid the $46 who were never given the paper LTCF and who did not have a choice on which to choose..I'm sorry, but I'd rather laminate my LTCF and save the $21 then get a plastic LTCF.

Isn't that what this whole thread, and largely the thread it shot off of, is supposed to entail?

There are potentially (at least) 3 different criminal charges that can be applied for the combined acts of charging too much and not issuing the paper license (a summary offense for 6109(h)(7) fee violation, a generic VUFA M1 offense for a violation of Chapter 33 of Title 37 of Pa.Code. (per 37 Pa.Code. 33.122) or an offense under the UFA per 18 Pa.C.S. 6119, and a M3-no-jail-time for non-/mis-/mal-feasance (16 P.S. 411 or 3411 depending on county class.) Any of those can also potentially count as misbehavior in offense and if you can get the court to believe it, upon conviction a sheriff could be removed from office.

And then there's filing a lawsuit in small claims.

Actually, that now reads...

18 6108(e) <Text of subsec. (e)(4) effective upon publication of the notice under 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6109(h)(2) or five years and 60 days [Jan. 10, 2011], whichever is first.>
(4) The sheriff shall require a photograph of the licensee on the license. The photograph shall be in a form compatible with the Commonwealth Photo Imaging Network.

(h)(2) reads that:
(2) (i) The Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall implement, within five years of the effective date of this paragraph, a system in conjunction with the Pennsylvania State Police and the Pennsylvania Sheriffs' Association to standardize and modernize the process of issuing licenses to carry firearms. Upon implementation of the system under this paragraph, the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall publish notice thereof in the Pennsylvania Bulletin.
so you're going to need to cite the Pa.Code. or Pa.B. reference that makes the change so. Otherwise we operate under the prior-to-Jan.-10-2011 provisions.

[MDJschool]

Follow up for mrjam2jab:
Looking over all searchable bulletins of PaBulletin.com for Commission on Crime and Delinquency (note that current volume is 40, and 2005's volume was 35,) I see no issuance relevant to that system to be implemented. I also saw nothing in their chapter on PaCode.com.

Keyword Volume Doc.Type Issue Page Fiscal Note Doc.No. Beg.Date End.Date Title Chapter Agency
all all all all all all all all all all Commission on Crime & Delinq
26 Pa.B. 2925 Drug Control and System Improvement Strategy
26 Pa.B. 6192 Availability of Federal Challenge Grant Funds
27 Pa.B. 1167 Statewide Community Corrections Conference
27 Pa.B. 2558 Drug Control and System Improvement Strategy
28 Pa.B. 5347 Criminal Justice Research Symposium
29 Pa.B. 3087 Drug Control and System Improvement Strategy
29 Pa.B. 5403 Criminal Justice Research Symposium
30 Pa.B. 2804 Drug Control and System Improvement Strategy
30 Pa.B. 3472 Basic Training and Continuing Education
30 Pa.B. 3474 Basic Training and Continuing Education
30 Pa.B. 5961 Constables' Education and Training
31 Pa.B. 788 Deputy Sheriff's Education and Training Board
31 Pa.B. 3558 Drug Control and System Improvement Strategy
32 Pa.B. 4489 Schedule of Compensation Limits and Reimbursement Rates for Crime Victims Compensation Program
33 Pa.B. 353 Deputy Sheriffs' Education and Training Board
33 Pa.B. 1617 Constabless Education and Training
34 Pa.B. 5032 Crime Victims Compensation
34 Pa.B. 5032 Crime Victims Compensation (con't)
36 Pa.B. 7815 Crime Victims Compensation
36 Pa.B. 7815 Crime Victims Compensation (con't)
37 Pa.B. 1651 Crime Victims Compensation
39 Pa.B. 1776 Guidelines and Technology Standards for the Collection and Transmission of Booking Center Captured Offenders' Identification Information

For andrewjs18, I forgot to note in my previous summary that for criminal cases of all types, restitution is available according to whatever provisions of law. See http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ml#post1149033

[Guns4Fun]

I don't know? While this seems like a noble cause, I think we have a lot bigger fish to fry than paying an extra $21 for a LTCF. Like say a couple trillion dollars being spent for health care.

Me, I willingly pay the $46 for the Montco LTCF. They would give me one for $25 if I wanted but I choose to pay the extra for them to take the photo and the nicer laminated card. So, how exactly am I going to ask them for a refund when I chose to get the nicer card? I just don't get it. They do offer the cheaper one but i wanted the more expensive one. I don't see how they are doing anything wrong.

I do think it's pretty stupid that we have to pay at all for a right but that's a whole nother topic.

[kadar]

Guns4Fun, and others who think the overcharge is appropriate...
Would you complain if the sheriff decided to give you a license for 2 years instead of 5?
After all, you know, he's just trying to make some income to balance his books.

[Guns4Fun]

Guns4Fun, and others who think the overcharge is appropriate...
Would you complain if the sheriff decided to give you a license for 2 years instead of 5?
After all, you know, he's just trying to make some income to balance his books.

To me, it has nothing to do with balancing his books. He provides the card for the $25, as required. I choose to pay more for the better card. It's really that simple.


It's an upgrade from the $25 card and if i want the upgrade, i'll pay more for it. If i don't, i wont. No one is making me pay more. I am choosing to do so of my own free will.