If asked to leave a store please follow up

[truecrimson]

The title says it all, but I'm going to run my mouth anyway. I'll start with quoting myself from another thread:

Originally Posted by truecrimson

DO NOT STOP VISITING ANY ESTABLISHMENT THAT ASKS YOU TO LEAVE FOR OC OR CC UNLESS AND UNTIL YOU HAVE EXHAUSTED ALL AVENUES OF PURSUIT AND ESTABLISHED THAT NO WEAPONS OR NO OC IS IN FACT COMPANY POLICY!!!!!!!!

Many greeters, associates, assistant managers, managers, and even the people who answer the phones at corporate are either not informed or misinformed. We clearly see time and again that police themselves do not know the law, and/or try to enforce their own opinions. Why then would we expect a lowly Sam's Club security person, or a Wal Mart greeter, or a bank branch manager to know?

Once you have an encounter of this kind then you need to pursue it via the manager, distrcit or area manager, and ultimately corporate. Do not give up until you get clarification and correction from above for the store employees. If you do give up then the person who approached you will believe that they were correct and keep asking OCers to leave.

So far, by my count, we have one business with a prohibition on carry, and that includes CC as well as OC, and a bunch of businesses in which it is allowed by corporate policy but every last minor minion may not have gotten the memo. If they got the memo and didn't like it then they may be counting on you not doing anything when harrassed.

I've been working a lot this past week on the POClist. That's the list of businesses that allow OC/CC by corporate policy.

http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkba/poclist.html

It is a companion to ImmenentDanger's and MJFletcher's NOClist which is the list of businesses banning OC/CC by corporate policy.

http://home.comcast.net/~2a.rights/L...CarryList.html

One thing that has become painfully apparent, especially tonight while working on Wal Mart, is that there is a serious lack of follow up on incidents.

I start out by doing a search on the store name and see what pops up. If I don't get the results from that I throw in OC and the store name, and then go on to add other terms. When I find a search string that produces results I usually get about 10 pages of results. Then I go through every thread that looks from the little bit visible in the search like it might be an encouner thread. If it is a real encounter thread then I read the entire thread looking for the posts where relevent information, policies, and resolutions are posted. Then I go back to the search list and do the next thread and so on. I usually go through all 10 or so search pages. For Wal Mart I only went through 1.

It is very frustrating to read 11-20 pages of stuff only to discover at the end that the person who had the incident or encounter never followed up, or if they did follow up they never posted the results. For Wal Mart I found at least 4 incidents which were never followed up on, or results were never posted.

IF YOU HAVE AN INCIDENT IN A STORE INVOLVING OC OR CC OF A FIREARM PLEASE FOLLOW UP UNTIL YOU HAVE DETERMINED WHAT EXACTLY THE CORPORATE POLICY REALLY IS AND PLEASE SHARE THE RESULTS INCLUDING NAMES, DATES, PHONE NUMBERS, AND ANY E MAILS OR DOCUMENTS YOU RECEIVE. IF YOU NEED HELP WITH WHO TO CONTACT, HOW TO CONTACT THEM, OR WHAT TO SAY JUST ASK. PLENTY OF US WILL BE GLAD TO HELP YOU, BUT WE CAN'T DO IT ALL FOR YOU.

Thank you.

ETA: I sent an an actual snail mail letter to Wal Mart today. I took the email I sent to Home Depot and removed any references to a specific business making it a generic letter/e mail that can be used for any company, business, or store. Feel free to steal, borrow, or modify to fit your needs.

Hello,
I am writing to you today regarding your corporate policy, and the enforcement thereof, on the lawful open carry of firearms in your stores by customers. In case you are unaware, the term "open carry" refers to the legal carrying of firearms, usually handguns, unconcealed and in plain view in a holster. Currently only 7 states and the District of Columbia do not allow some form of open carry in public. The map below is courtesy of www.opencarry.org

http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html (I pasted the actual map into the email, and rtf document)

Conversely, this means that 43 states do allow some form of open carry. Some require a license or permit and some do not. Each have their own particular laws, rules, and regulations.

A little background may be in order. Open carry of a firearm is legal in Pennsylvania on foot without a license or permit. A License to Carry Firearms is required to carry a firearm in any manner in a vehicle, in a city of the first class (currently only Philadelphia), or in a declared state of emergency. A License to carry Firearms is also required to conceal, but having a License does not mandate concealment. According to the Pennsylvania State Police almost 650,000 Pennsylvanians have been issued a License to Carry Firearms since 2004. There is no method to track the number of additional unlicensed open carriers. Pennsylvania has established reciprocity with 24 other states allowing residents of those states to carry a firearm concealed, in a city of the first class, or during a declared state of emergency while visiting Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania also recognizes any other states permit or license for carry in a vehicle regardless of reciprocity, and people with a license or permit from a non reciprocal state can then open carry when they exit their vehicle. As you can see there are a lot of law abiding people carrying guns openly or concealed in Pennsylvania.

It has been our understanding that your corporate policy is to follow state law on the matter, which is probably the best course. It would be difficult to maintain and update a separate firearms policy for each state in which you have stores, given the tendency of firearms laws to change almost annually and differ widely among states. By having a policy of mirroring state law you automatically tailor the policy in each location to match what is legal and normal for that area. However there seems to be a problem with inconsistent enforcement by store personnel and managers, and in many cases a lack of understanding of what both corporate policy and state law actually are in their locale. We continue to receive reports of lawful open carriers in Pennsylvania being asked to conceal, asked to leave, and even having the police called on them when visiting your stores.

We certainly respect the rights of private property owners and businesses to establish any policy they choose regarding activities on their private property. If you wish to prohibit firearms on your premises we will respect that and take our business else where. We will inform other carriers and gun owners of this, and encourage them to do likewise. We also encourage businesses to support the rights of law abiding citizens to be able to defend themselves, and will encourage carriers and gun owners to patronize businesses that allow the lawful carry of firearms.

However if a business does not have and enforce a consistent policy it makes things more difficult for everyone. If we have to guess each and every time whether or not our legally carried firearm will get us asked to leave on the whim of the manager or other employee then it becomes much easier for us to list that business as an unfriendly place and avoid it. Therefore I am requesting written clarification of your corporate policy on the lawful carry of firearms by customers in your stores in Pennsylvania, and whether or not that policy applies across the board or may be ignored by store managers. If managers are bound by that policy, then I would ask you to please clarify the policy to all of your managers, loss prevention personnel, and corporate complaint related personnel.

If you need assistance in educating your managers and loss prevention personnel on the laws relating to the carrying of firearms in Pennsylvania many of us would be delighted to assist. We are well versed in the law, and have developed a variety of educational material on the subject. I personally would be happy to meet with any managers or other personnel to help them develop a better understanding of the subject. I am equally certain that I could assist in locating people to perform the same function in other states.

We simply want to go about our business without worrying about being harassed, and not cause a disturbance by unknowingly being someplace where we aren't welcome.

Thank you

[schr8er2000]

Its kind of hard to get a response from Wal Mart ( I had an issue there last year see post http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...n-walmart.html (NO OC in Hazleton Walmart)) when all you get is an answer from the Area Manager..... I contacted Corporate NUMEROUS times... but the questions always end up going back to the store manager in Hazleton
...

I have CALLED corporate in MO... said they would look into it.. and all I get is an answer from the local yokel......with the same old " if someone complains we have to act on it " response.....

[TheF00L]

And a reminder to all:

The follow through not only forces the businesses to re-examine their treatment of law abiding citizens, it also helps your fellow OC'ers in their future interactions with said companies.

[normanvin]

I would like to see a stickey of results from all of the places that have been aproached on this subject.

[sjohn26]

Originally Posted by schr8er2000

I have CALLED corporate in MO... said they would look into it.. and all I get is an answer from the local yokel......with the same old " if someone complains we have to act on it " response.....

Counter that with:

"SO I WISH TO COMPLAIN ABOUT INFRINGEMENT OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS............want to see that on the evening news??"

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by sjohn26

Counter that with:

"SO I WISH TO COMPLAIN ABOUT INFRINGEMENT OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS............want to see that on the evening news??"

Private property rights are supreme. A business can have any policy they want. The problem we are having is that for businesses that do have a policy it is being enforced very inconsistently by different employees in different locations, and many businesses don't want to publicly produce a policy even if they are happy to tell you what it is.

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by schr8er2000

Its kind of hard to get a response from Wal Mart ( I had an issue there last year see post http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...n-walmart.html (NO OC in Hazleton Walmart)) when all you get is an answer from the Area Manager..... I contacted Corporate NUMEROUS times... but the questions always end up going back to the store manager in Hazleton
...

I have CALLED corporate in MO... said they would look into it.. and all I get is an answer from the local yokel......with the same old " if someone complains we have to act on it " response.....

I understand but keep hammering on them. Try all avenues; snail mail, phone, e mail. Enlist others to do likewise. I didn't even get to your thread, but had plenty that were never followed up on or dropped after an initial inquiry. And that is just on page 1 of the search, the first 10 or so threads. I can't imagine what the subsequent search pages contained. Probably double digits. If all of those people were hammering on Wal Mart we might get somewhere. If all of those people don't follow up we get nowhere.

ETA: My 1000th post

[IronButt]

Originally Posted by normanvin

I would like to see a stickey of results from all of the places that have been aproached on this subject.

+1. That would be a good, time saving reference.

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by normanvin

I would like to see a stickey of results from all of the places that have been aproached on this subject.

Originally Posted by IronButt

+1. That would be a good, time saving reference.

Well it's not a sticky, but you could book mark or favorite place these web sites:

Originally Posted by truecrimson

I've been working a lot this past week on the POClist. That's the list of businesses that allow OC/CC by corporate policy.

http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkba/poclist.html

It is a companion to ImmenentDanger's and MJFletcher's NOClist which is the list of businesses banning OC/CC by corporate policy.

http://home.comcast.net/~2a.rights/L...CarryList.html

You will find not only a list, but links to relevent threads, which posts contain relevent information, and any documents or e mails received.

[PA Traveler]

Originally Posted by truecrimson

The title says it all, but I'm going to run my mouth anyway. I'll start with quoting myself from another thread:

<snip>
ETA: I sent an an actual snail mail letter to Wal Mart today. I took the email I sent to Home Depot and removed any references to a specific business making it a generic letter/e mail that can be used for any company, business, or store. Feel free to steal, borrow, or modify to fit your needs.

Outstanding letter and effort. Big credit to you TC for walking the walk.