READ FIRST: Where you CAN and CANNOT Carry weapons in the State of Pennsylvania

[knight0334]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

whatever it is considered...and to whomever it applies...it does not define carrying in a daycare center as a crime and does not prescribe any sort of penalty to the carrier for doing so.

further, the section of law (http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/05...ap3270toc.html) that discusses firearms in daycare centers, etc. has as its stated purpose:



so, basically, this entire section of code is about whether or not the facility can get a certificate of compliance. and violations of it just mean the facility cannot get a certificate of compliance.

of interest is the fact that the courts seem to have decided that at least some facilities don't even need a certificate of compliance anyway...



of course, from the standpoint of the carrier, there is the whole trespassing issue (which i personally think is a non-issue...as there is likely not a posted "notice against trespassing", but, as gunlawyer has pointed out, this issue has never really been resovled in court).

I figured as much since there was no offense listed. I hadn't had a chance to look at it again after initially finding it until today in another thread.

[Bubbasee]

In reference to CC on School Property....

I am wondering if the US Supreme Court's decision in Heller, with it specifically stating:
We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.
(from http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf),

provide any help in interpreting the PA Law reguarding Possession of Weapon on School Property...
912(c) It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

Does the US Supreme Court's decision address this issue of lawful purpose for us in reguards to 912(c)?

[lildobe]

Originally Posted by Bubbasee

Does the US Supreme Court's decision address this issue of lawful purpose for us in reguards to 912(c)?

In short, no.

Basically, the way Heller was worded it only applies to The District of Columbia (That weird "not-a-city, not-a-state" place in Virginia)

Because the 2nd amendment has not been incorporated under the 14th amendment yet, it specifically does not apply to the states, only the Federal Government. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorpo...Bill_of_Rights)

However, our own Constitution of the Commonwealth has an even stronger gun rights clause in Article 1, Section 21:
"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." (Emphasis mine)

The reason that 18 PaCS §912 still stands is because no one has taken it to court, and appealed it up to the PA Supreme Court using that as a defense. It may also be due to the wording of §912(c), giving an "out" to people lawfully bearing arms, though again this has not been tested to any great degree.

In short, carrying a firearm on school property remains illegal because of the statute as written. It only provides a defense, not an exemption to the statute. So unless you want to be a test case, I would recommend against carrying a firearm on school property.

(Keep in mind, IANAL, not a constitutional law expert - this is just my opinion based on my knowledge of the law)

[knight0334]

To add to lildobe's reply,

Heller pretty much affirmed your right to carrying in self-defense is limited to inside your home. They did not extend that beyond the confines of your dwelling, if anything just opened the door for laws limiting carrying anywhere outside your front door.

[winchester]

If your witnessing a crime occuring to someone else, can you pull your gun out on the perpetrator and make a citizens arrest. and, if deadly force is absolutely required what are the potential repercussions?
You said the laws arent soo great for the person protecting themself or someone else and they could be civilly sued?
Looking foward to your reply, Winchester.

Originally Posted by knight0334

It is often asked where is it legal or illegal to carry in PA. Below is a guide to where and how you can lawfully carry.

Off-limits places in PA and what makes them off-limits:
1. Court Facilities - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 913
2a.*Grounds and buildings of Elementary and Secondary schools(K-12 grades), whether the school is private or public - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 912
2b. Within 1000ft of a school unless you have a license/permit issued by the state in which the school is located - US Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Subsection 922(q)
3. ***State Parks and other reserves maintained by the PA DCNR - by regulation 17 PA. CODE, PART I, Subpart B, Subsection 11.215
4. Casinos - by regulation Title 18, Part VII, Chapter 465, Subsection 465a.13
5. Certain Department of State buildings - by regulation
6. Places off-limits by Federal Law or regulation, IE: military installations(exceptions for hunting at some bases), Federal Government buildings, National Parks and other historic sights, after the security check point in airports.
7. Any private property where a landowner, tenant or person so authorized to maintain property has asked you to leave because you are carrying - Title 18, Chapter 35, Subsection 3503

If your situation is not one of the above, then you are LEGAL.

Off-limits places apply just the same for open as they do concealed.

*Colleges are not prohibited by law, however the college could levy their own infractions like expelling the person or other civil punishments.
***The state park regulatory off-limits will no longer be in affect after Dec 16th or 17th of 2008 due to passage and signing of HB1845

Adobe Acrobat Reader

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Private Properties, land owner and tenant rights prevail above all:
1. If the land/facility isn't owned by a municipality, township, county, state or fed government - then it is private property. In fact, even many properties maintained by a municipality of any level in PA is still private property - but the municipality has a lease or right-of-way. Most parcels are surveyed from the center of the road in front of your land - yes, if asked you can rightfully reply that you do own the road.
2. Malls, stores, movie theaters, restaurants, bars, etc are private property - they may ask you to leave if you are carrying a firearm, or the may ask you to leave if you aren't carrying a gun, they may ask you to leave because you weren't wearing a pink tutu with a tactical thigh holster, they may ask you to leave for ANY reason and you must comply.
3. Just because persons may come and go in a place as they please, doesn't make it "public" property. What makes property "public" or "private" is whether the land/real-estate is owned by an individual/company/corporation(private) or by the people as a whole(public).
4. Unless you have an Allodial Title, you do not own your land - you lease it from the government by means of property taxes and hold rights by "Color of Deed".
5. To sum things up, your land is actually public property that is leased by means of taxes in the Fee Simple/Feudal Title system allowing you to claim it as private(Color of Deed). The government then requires right-of-ways from you for roads or other easements.

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Open carry:
If you can own a firearm, you may lawfully openly carry it on foot without a license. Except in a City of the First Class(1 million residents), you are required to have a license. Philly is the ONLY First Class city in PA, the next largest city, Pittsburgh, is about 550,000 residents away from being one.

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Ages to purchase or own a firearm:

Handguns, Pistols, Revolvers:
1. 21 to buy one from a FFL
2a. 18 if given or purchasing one from a spouse, parent or grandparent. No paperwork necessary
2b. 18 if given or purchasing from any other person who lawfully owns the handgun, BUT it must be transfered through a SHERIFF. FFL's can only use the instant background check for firearms that they have listed in their bound books - and for you to receive it from the FFL you must be 21. Since Sheriffs aren't required to do such - they may use the instant check required by PA law to do the transfer.**

Rifles and Shotguns:
1. 18 to buy from a FFL.


**See ATF Open Letter Below:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/122905pe...openletter.pdf

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Before you ask, NO loaded long guns can be carried or transported in a vehicle - whether you are licensed or not.

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Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground in PA:

Castle Doctrine - one's home(and place of work in PA): PA does have probably 90% of full blown Castle Doctrine as coded statute, and practices it in common law. You have no duty to retreat from your home or place of work, unless you were the aggressor and/or the other person has a lawful right to be there as well. The only thing that PA lacks with true "Castle Doctrine" is the assumption that the person unlawfully entering your home is doing so to do harm. You must believe that you are at immediate risk of serious bodily injury, death, rape or kidnapping before using deadly force. However, there is a provision under the Protection of Property section of law to stop unlawful entries if a felony is committed within a dwelling. And also a PA Supreme Court ruling stating deadly force may be used if all attempts to effect an arrest for a forcible type felony fail(Kopko v. Miller).

Stand Your Ground - anywhere else in PA: PA lacks this type of provision allowing you to meet force with force anywhere. However, PA does grant one's place of work as a extension to the Castle Doctrine. Any place else you must retreat if you can do so "in complete safety" before using force. If you cannot retreat with complete safety, or are faced with immediate deadly force, risk of serious bodily injury, rape, or kidnapping - you may use deadly force to protect yourself.

Protection of Others: You may use force to protect another if they are in the same situation as you would be required to be in before using deadly force as described in the Stand Your Ground section above. Sort of a "in their shoes" type provision.

Civil Liabilities: This is usually added on with "Stand Your Ground" provisions. PA lacks such protections in our laws and you may face civil lawsuits even if the use of force is justified.

[knight0334]

Originally Posted by winchester

If your witnessing a crime occuring to someone else, can you pull your gun out on the perpetrator and make a citizens arrest. and, if deadly force is absolutely required what are the potential repercussions?
You said the laws arent soo great for the person protecting themself or someone else and they could be civilly sued?
Looking foward to your reply, Winchester.

With "citizens arrest", which is actually common law arrest which the Sheriff and Constables have the same level of authority - you, me, Joe Smo, or Sheriff Nau of Centre County, can only make a warranted arrest, an arrest if you have reason to believe that a felony occurred, or an arrest for a breach of peace that occurred in your presence.

During making an arrest, you may use "force" if it is necessary. You may only use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another. For the most serious forcible felonies and breaches of the peace, you may use deadly force if your attempts to effect an arrest go to no avail.

If say you see someone getting the crap beat out of them to the point it is life threatening, would deadly force be justified? ....most likely.

You need to read Title 18, Chapter 5 the whole way through. You will also have to note that in PA, the term "force" and "deadly force" are entirely two different things legally.

Repercussion, you'll probably be arrested, possibly even charged until the dust settles and you are vindicated - which it could happen as soon as the police and DA look at things, or after you've appealed to the US Supreme Court due to being convicted in state court.. As for civil issues, you can be sued for anything including breathing the same air as another. There are no civil protection if you use force or deadly force, nor if you screw up and wrongfully arrest someone. They may be some civil protections if you assist a police officer while making an arrest, but do not quote me on that. ...last I understood it was still being debated.

[winchester]

Thanks for the prompt reply and enlightening information. I wasnt aware citizens have the same "arrest authority" as the Sheriff and Constables. interesting to know. Anyways, good sharing words with ya, Sincerely,
Winchester.

Originally Posted by knight0334

With "citizens arrest", which is actually common law arrest which the Sheriff and Constables have the same level of authority - you, me, Joe Smo, or Sheriff Nau of Centre County, can only make a warranted arrest, an arrest if you have reason to believe that a felony occurred, or an arrest for a breach of peace that occurred in your presence.

During making an arrest, you may use "force" if it is necessary. You may only use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another. For the most serious forcible felonies and breaches of the peace, you may use deadly force if your attempts to effect an arrest go to no avail.

If say you see someone getting the crap beat out of them to the point it is life threatening, would deadly force be justified? ....most likely.

You need to read Title 18, Chapter 5 the whole way through. You will also have to note that in PA, the term "force" and "deadly force" are entirely two different things legally.

Repercussion, you'll probably be arrested, possibly even charged until the dust settles and you are vindicated - which it could happen as soon as the police and DA look at things, or after you've appealed to the US Supreme Court due to being convicted in state court.. As for civil issues, you can be sued for anything including breathing the same air as another. There are no civil protection if you use force or deadly force, nor if you screw up and wrongfully arrest someone. They may be some civil protections if you assist a police officer while making an arrest, but do not quote me on that. ...last I understood it was still being debated.

[The Unknown 1087]

Does anyone have a back up of any of those links? Apparently AOL no longer hosts them at all.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Dane

Does anyone have a back up of any of those links? Apparently AOL no longer hosts them at all.

http://www.paopencarry.org/law/ufa.html

[The Unknown 1087]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

http://www.paopencarry.org/law/ufa.html

Ahh sorry, I didn't see that.