Another black eye for cops and CCW

[GunLawyer001]

As I tell my clients and anyone else who'll listen, this is standard operating procedure among the less intelligent cops, the worst cops, the ones with chips on their shoulders because none of the High School cheerleaders liked them.

It's always the same sequence, more or less:
1. "Do you have any illegal drugs or guns in the car?"
2. "Let me look at that."
3. "I'm going to take this back to the cruiser and run the serial number to see if it's stolen."
4. "You can pick it up tomorrow at the station."
5. [Next day] "I'm sorry, department policy prohibits us from returning this to you without a court order."

More gun owners need to file complaints against the officers involved. Some citizens need to file lawsuits against the officers personally, even though getting a sizeable judgment is unlikely. There has to be a cost to the cops who violate their sworn duty. If cops routinely seized cell phones, or laptop computers, or wallets, they'd be fired, but somehiow they assume that they can seize your gun even without any evidence of a crime.

Never consent to a search. Never agree to surrender your weapon. Never sign a consent form for a search or a "voluntary" surrender. Make it clear that you are obeying their orders for now because they are acting under color of governmental authority, but will be discussing the matter with their chief (or the mayor, or city council) accompanied by an attorney. Use their name, say "OK Officer Jones, I will comply but under protest."

Where there's no cost for doing the wrong thing, people will do the wrong thing more often.

[Skuggi]

can you still request another officer to the scene for a traffic stop ?

[jtkratzer]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

As I tell my clients and anyone else who'll listen, this is standard operating procedure among the less intelligent cops, the worst cops, the ones with chips on their shoulders because none of the High School cheerleaders liked them.

It's always the same sequence, more or less:
1. "Do you have any illegal drugs or guns in the car?"
2. "Let me look at that."
3. "I'm going to take this back to the cruiser and run the serial number to see if it's stolen."
4. "You can pick it up tomorrow at the station."
5. [Next day] "I'm sorry, department policy prohibits us from returning this to you without a court order."

More gun owners need to file complaints against the officers involved. Some citizens need to file lawsuits against the officers personally, even though getting a sizeable judgment is unlikely. There has to be a cost to the cops who violate their sworn duty. If cops routinely seized cell phones, or laptop computers, or wallets, they'd be fired, but somehiow they assume that they can seize your gun even without any evidence of a crime.

Never consent to a search. Never agree to surrender your weapon. Never sign a consent form for a search or a "voluntary" surrender. Make it clear that you are obeying their orders for now because they are acting under color of governmental authority, but will be discussing the matter with their chief (or the mayor, or city council) accompanied by an attorney. Use their name, say "OK Officer Jones, I will comply but under protest."

Where there's no cost for doing the wrong thing, people will do the wrong thing more often.

Is there a standard operation procedure for refusing to surrender your firearm? In the situation where no crime has been committed, no reason for an officer to validly order you to surrender your firearm?

If I've done nothing wrong, I'm going to have a hard time with an officer asking me to surrender my firearm, even if it's over night. I'm going to call a lawyer on the spot or I'm going to call his police department on the spot.

I'm not saying I'm going to argue or fight with the officer, but I'm not going to roll over and let an officer infringe upon my rights because he's had a bad day or life for that matter.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

Is there a standard operation procedure for refusing to surrender your firearm? In the situation where no crime has been committed, no reason for an officer to validly order you to surrender your firearm?

If I've done nothing wrong, I'm going to have a hard time with an officer asking me to surrender my firearm, even if it's over night. I'm going to call a lawyer on the spot or I'm going to call his police department on the spot.

I'm not saying I'm going to argue or fight with the officer, but I'm not going to roll over and let an officer infringe upon my rights because he's had a bad day or life for that matter.

Yes, it's called "being arrested."

You have to obey all lawful orders of a police officer. Since these orders aren't labeled "lawful" or "unlawful" at the time, the only safe practice is to obey, pay attention, and follow up later for violations of your civil rights.

Courts tend to side with the police, who they see every day. The judge has probably never seen you before, so he'll be reluctant to state on the record that Officer Bob acted unlawfully, since Officer Bob is in his court every week, and Officer Bob and his cronies issue traffic tickets on the judge's commute to the courthouse.

If the officer orders you to massage his genitals or hand over your cash, you will be safe in refusing. But if he takes your weapon, or demands your car keys, or starts searching your car, it is NOT safe to refuse or to attempt to physically restrain him from searching.

Get a lawyer the next day, or at least file a calm & coherent complaint. Work the chain of command, contact the papers, get the word out. But don't risk arrest for a variety of charges.

[jtkratzer]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Yes, it's called "being arrested."

You have to obey all lawful orders of a police officer. Since these orders aren't labeled "lawful" or "unlawful" at the time, the only safe practice is to obey, pay attention, and follow up later for violations of your civil rights.

Courts tend to side with the police, who they see every day. The judge has probably never seen you before, so he'll be reluctant to state on the record that Officer Bob acted unlawfully, since Officer Bob is in his court every week, and Officer Bob and his cronies issue traffic tickets on the judge's commute to the courthouse.

If the officer orders you to massage his genitals or hand over your cash, you will be safe in refusing. But if he takes your weapon, or demands your car keys, or starts searching your car, it is NOT safe to refuse or to attempt to physically restrain him from searching.

Get a lawyer the next day, or at least file a calm & coherent complaint. Work the chain of command, contact the papers, get the word out. But don't risk arrest for a variety of charges.

I didn't mean steadfast refusal, I meant at least getting someone else involved. Refusing to hand over your firearm no matter what is not only a way to get arrested, it's a possible way to get shot, too.

[NineseveN]

Two things:

1. I do inform if the officer isn't being a jackass, but I sincerely understand those who feel it best not to inform. Not informing is the safe bet up to a certain point (if they're going to search you or your car, it would be wise to tell them in a calm and reasonable manner).


2. Taking a stand on the side of the road for your rights is admirable, but there's a point where the side of the road is the place to be quiet and lawyer up.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

I didn't mean steadfast refusal, I meant at least getting someone else involved. Refusing to hand over your firearm no matter what is not only a way to get arrested, it's a possible way to get shot, too.

When you're dealing with power junkies, any excuse will get them started. If you delay compliance, if you demand that they do something like call the Sergeant or another unit, if you threaten a lawsuit INSTEAD OF complying, the cop may escalate. Bad cops are unpredictable, planting evidence is not unheard-of, and lying about what happened is common.

Lots of citizens are beaten up and then accused of resisting arrest; lots of vehicles are searched despite protests and the cops swear that consent was given. The cops control the scene, they control the witnesses (by bringing in their fellow officers while keeping byustanders away). Look at Waco, where the crime scene was bulldozed to protect the ATF and FBI lies, and they got away with it.

Refuse consent, comply with demands, don't sign anything except the receipt of traffic citation form. Wait until they write up their report, then use a lawyer to hold them accountable. Calmly telling the cop that you are aware of your legal rights and that you do not consent to his behavior (even while complying) may deter some cops.

[MarcS]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

Whether or not it's required to inform and officer about whether or not you're carrying, I do. If I'm stopped by the police, especially at night, the interior lights go on and my hands are up. For one thing, when the police run your plates, it will show if you're a holder of a license to carry firearms. It just makes things less stressful on the officer and less likely that I will get shot.

There's a lot of that which is wrong. First, in PA your LTCF isn't attached to your licence plate.

Secondly, that's debatable whether informing the officer will make you less likely to get shot. I know of several people who had guns pointed at them after informing the officer. When a cop points a gun at me i feel there's a higher likelyhood i'll be shot.

[jtkratzer]

Originally Posted by MarcS

There's a lot of that which is wrong. First, in PA your LTCF isn't attached to your licence plate.

Secondly, that's debatable whether informing the officer will make you less likely to get shot. I know of several people who had guns pointed at them after informing the officer. When a cop points a gun at me i feel there's a higher likelyhood i'll be shot.

That's not what I've heard from several different police officers on several different departments. I'll make a phone call on Monday to find out.

Also, surprising an officer is a lot more likely to get you shot than calmly informing him that you are carrying and telling him where your firearm is located.

[Steve in PA]

As already stated, running your license plate or even your drivers license does not indicate whether or not you have a LTC.

A seperate inquiry is needed to be run in order to find out that information.