Is this legal? LTCF Question

[87th PVI]

I thought PA was a "Shall Issue" state. In York County you fill out the standard form & if you meet the legal requirements per the state, you get your LTCF. Some friends asked how to get their "permits" so I made it easy for them & printed out the LTCF form (and also a copy of the flyer from this site). One of my interested friends lives in Lancaster, so I went thru their site...
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sherif...p?a=3&q=577251
...to get the info specific for him, and I was shocked to see there is an additional questionaire required in that county.
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sherif...structions.pdf

This additional form wouldn't be a problem for my friend, but what is the sheriff doing here? Are they fishing for a reason to not issue? Some of it such as birth place & citzenship is even redundant when compared with the standard state form.

I only have had experience with my home county before this so I don't know... maybe this is common practice for other counties???? But it just seems unlawful to me like he's trying to find a reason to deny. Is the Lancaster County Sheriff committing a rights violation here?

[granuale]

Yes, this requirement is a violation of the Uniform Firearms Act. The Act provides that the form for application is the one issued by the state police, and the fees allowed for processing the application. Unfortunately many many counties and Philadelphia break the law every day with additional paperwork, illegal wait times, etc. You can find many examples by searching on this site.

What we need to do and haven't done yet, is make sure that these jurisdictions are sued in court every time they violate the law and refuse to comply with the UFA. This of course takes resources - namely time and money that people (including myself) haven't put forward. Hopefully one day we'll have a Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Legal Defense Fund that will sue all these bastards into compliance. Greg Rotz of this forum has done great work with legal defense funds for number of Pennsylvanians whose firearm rights have been officially oppressed, but so far, not in this area. Anyway, sorry to get off on a rant. Yes what they're doing is illegal. You can go along, or refuse and sue if you get denied, or they fail to process.

I was thisclose to suing Delco, but they actually came through and processed my application within the statutory maximum number of days. If you decided to sue, PM me and I may be able to help out with some thoughts as me and another PAFOAer who is also a lawyer did some preliminary research.

[gnbrotz]

granuale pretty well hit the nail on the head. They are indeed violating the law, and they only recourse available is through the court. As he also mentioned, this costs money, and most people either can't afford a challenge, or would simply rather comply than deal with the hassle of legal action.

So far, the cases where this community has assisted with the financial burden have been "defensive" rather than "offensive" actions.

[mjfletcher]

I just eyeballed the form, and the only point where I can see the sheriffs office getting away with it is through the fact that the law requires the sheriff to perform an investigation, specifically paragraph 3:

§ 6109. Licenses.
(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom
the application is made shall:
(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal
conviction;
(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under
indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime
punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and
reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to
act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded
from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section
6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use,
manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency
and mental health check following the procedures set forth in
section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms),
receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record
the date and number on the application.

His form asks for residency time and local LEO agency which he could easily claim is so that he can contact your local police as part of his investigation to determine if you are someone who routinely has police at his home or complaints from neighbors etc etc. It would be a weak argument, but a judge just might agree with it since there is only a prescribed form for the application but nothing dictating exactly how the investigation into character and reputation is to be done. Maybe something to add to the ever growing 'things to change' list.

[danp]

What MJF said is a possible reason a sheriff could use. I could see a lot of them hiding behind the "Well, it says I have to do an investigation, this is how I do it..."

I think it's a poor argument because of how far it could be extended, but we should be prepared for such an argument.

[Pa. Patriot]

Ya'll also missed this:

§ 6109. Licenses.
3. Form of application and content. -- The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be ... snip

[markheck1]

Hmmmm.....I wonder what the sherrif would say if you printed out the relevant section of the UFA and brought it with you on your trip to apply

[riverpirate]

When i renewed my license last year i did the standard form. There wasnt any additional stuff to do. Also the people there at the Lancaster courthouse are very friendly and will gladly walk you through any of it. They actually want you to get your license unlike when i did mine in york 7 years ago , they we a pain about it.

[Statkowski]

I just eyeballed the form, and the only point where I can see the sheriffs office getting away with it is through the fact that the law requires the sheriff to perform an investigation, specifically paragraph 3 ... His form asks for residency time and local LEO agency which he could easily claim is so that he can contact your local police as part of his investigation to determine if you are someone who routinely has police at his home or complaints from neighbors etc etc. It would be a weak argument, but a judge just might agree with it since there is only a prescribed form for the application but nothing dictating exactly how the investigation into character and reputation is to be done. Maybe something to add to the ever growing 'things to change' list.

1. State law says one piece of paper, period. It doesn't grant the sheriff permission to add others of his own.

2. State law says the sheriff conducts the investigation. It doesn't state you are required to do anything other than fill out that first and only piece of paper.

3. If the sheriff has problems doing his job investigating, then the sheriff obviously isn't doing his job very well since the other 66 counties in the Commonwealth don't have any such problem doing theirs.

4. If the sheriff can't figure out what police agency serves your place of residence, see paragraph 3.

[BobCav]

OK, I'm game to play. I just moved to Lancaster and still have a valid VA CHP so I'm covered to conceal and carry in the car, but I prefer OC anyway.

My question is this. Isn't the proof of residency requirement redundant and extra-legal since I've already stated my residence on the application and signed it under penalty of law? This was/is an issue in Fairfax VA and down there you could submit with no SSN or proof of residency and they had to issue due to it being a "shall-issue" state. Anyone tried this yet up here?

Also, the Lancaster County "second form" is titled "INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIREARMS PERMIT APPLICANTS" and yet it requests further personal info. Sure it's splitting hairs but it's either instructions or additional info or both. They need to call it what it is. I think I'll call them them on that also so they know that their program is under scrutiny.

Thoughts?