Soccer parents wince at prospect of guns at games

[RocketFoot]

I keep saying that we do not need to split our ranks! No matter what your personal agenda is as a gun owner (read: OC, CC, Collector, Activist, Weekend Warrior) fact is that we are all gun owners! And we need to stick together or else we won't be gun owners for long!

Dan & Doug have given us a great media to organize in order to protect our rights. I, for one, am very grateful for this forum and I look forward to being an active member for a long time to come! I will also continue to donate as I can...with extra cash when available or by donating my time and/or skills to help with the cause!

We're all in this boat together...if you see a leak, try to plug it up!

[danp]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

If it was your intention to steer the activism (NRA) instead of providing a place for people to organize their own (PAFOA as it is now) then I don't think this forum ended up as you intended it to be. And a forum isn't likely the most accurate or efficient way to do that, which is why the NRA and GOA and such don't have them and didn't start with them.

Starting an organization is no different than starting a business. When there's already players in the field, you need something that makes you unique that you are skilled at. I had no connections, no real experience with politics, but I had the skills to make a website/run a forum which there was obviously an unfulfilled need.

I should also clarify that I think it is wonderful for people to organize their own activism, as long as it's being done intelligently. But the organization as a whole has a duty to step up and say something when it thinks that is not the case. The distributed nature of this forum and organization has proven itself effective, but that doesn't mean it will always be 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by NineseveN

I foresee a lot of people that have been doing the work on their own realizing that they no longer fit in with or need the forum, that's probably going to be rocky. Good luck Dan.

It could be, nothing in life is without risks. The forum is a great way to get lots of people together in one place, share knowledge, share causes, and try to get out a message without ramming it down someone's throat.

The NRA doesn't need a forum because it has existed for almost 200 years and already has millions of members on email and regular mailing lists.

As I've said, PAFOA can't please everyone, all it can do is listen to what people have to say and try to steer this ship in a direction that it feels best fits their needs while staying true to it's mission. That is unfortunately probably going to mean some hurt feelings along the way when people feel disenfranchised. That's the reality of life.

I do plan on looking into creating a greater segmentation on the forum between gun talk and politics talk however (if I can find a good solution)

[vetter3006]

Originally Posted by RocketFoot

I keep saying that we do not need to split our ranks! No matter what your personal agenda is as a gun owner (read: OC, CC, Collector, Activist, Weekend Warrior) fact is that we are all gun owners! And we need to stick together or else we won't be gun owners for long!

Dan & Doug have given us a great media to organize in order to protect our rights. I, for one, am very grateful for this forum and I look forward to being an active member for a long time to come! I will also continue to donate as I can...with extra cash when available or by donating my time and/or skills to help with the cause!

We're all in this boat together...if you see a leak, try to plug it up!

Well put and I 100% agree with you.

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by danp

snipped

Dan, I've never donated so I don't expect to receive any accounting of PAFOA funds. You mentioned that you post the information in a separate forum, have you considered putting that forum on the access list for subscribers so they can actively see where their money is going? Maybe setup a user group for them and email the information periodically?

[ChamberedRound]

(sigh)

Holy crap, I lose my job and stop checking the site every 5 minutes and all hell breaks loose...

I know Dan already spoke his mind on this, but I feel it necessary to comment on this as well.

Originally Posted by shefearsnothing

Regarding the mention of PAFOA in the media. I will openly admit I have mentioned PAFOA when talking to John Latimer. HERE IS WHY I DID IT! I hope everyone is listening though!!! I received a TREMENDOUS amount of support from MEMBERS, I REPEAT MEMBERS, MEMBERS, MEMBERS, here. I felt they were certainly worth mentioning and thanking publically. I NEVER EVER EVER said that the OWNER of pafoa supported me. I KNOW better.

IMHO, you did nothing wrong by mentioning the PAFOA.

Dan has always stated that he has no problem with one referring to the PAFOA as an organization or as a website, as long as one doesn't identify oneself as an official representative of the PAFOA. There is only one OFFICIAL representative of the PAFOA, and that's Dan himself. SFN, you didn't identify yourself as such, so there should be no problem here. Everyone else should get off SFN's back over it.

Originally Posted by shefearsnothing

Dan NEVER ONCE showed one IOTA of support. HIS CHOICE. NO PROBLEM. He owns the forum. If pafoa didn't exist I guess that support wouldn't have been there, right? Should pafoa be brought up again I will be sure it is made VERY clear that "the organization" is NOT supportive but rather MEMBERS of the forum. Is that acceptable? If it is not I am sure I will be notified and given a script. *sigh*

Not sure if you mean this in an aggressive tone or not. But, the fact is that the PAFOA as an official organization didn't support you, and quite frankly there's nothing wrong with that. When Dan is ready to take this association into the realm of political activism, he'll do so. Realize that in the grand scheme of things, the PAFOA is barely a gnat on the ass of the political world. We have a lot of growing to do.

In the meantime, take comfort in the fact that without the PAFOA, most people in the world wouldn't have even known about your situation. It was through the community here that participates in the PAFOA's online forum that you were able to put the word out, get support from people both ideologically and monetarily, get help from those who were willing to donate of their time, get support on the day of your hearing, surround yourself with like-minded individuals, and have those like-minded individuals write letters to the sheriff, and write to and speak with the media in your support.

Originally Posted by Frenchy

What is PAFOA?

Is it Doug’s server or firearms in PA.?
Is it Dan’s dream to become famous?
Can we say PAFOA is representative of the Firearm Owners of America?
Or is it the Pennsylvania Firearms OWNERS Association?


Yeah I am saying this because many here think it. You don’t like it, BAN me! But while you are at it, ban every other member here who believes the exact same thing.

Frenchy, you have every right to your opinion my friend, and as always I respect that even though I may not agree. I personally believe your post is way off-base and I'm not going to break down every statement, as Dan has already done so in his own defense.

With that said:

First, as mentioned above by me, while those that participate here are users, members, and supporting members of this site and supporters of the RKBA in its various forms, Dan is the only official representative of the PAFOA. Everyone can spread the word about the PAFOA and use it to help and support others as has been done in a number of instances, but no one but Dan can officially speak on behalf of the organization as whole.

This idea really isn't all that far-fetched. The President of the US and the Executive Branch are (technically) the only ones who can represent and speak for America as a whole on the world stage. Wayne LaPierre is the only one who can officially speak for the NRA. I understand that unlike these men Dan wasn't elected, but without his hard work and efforts this place wouldn't exist at all. And IMHO he's never acted in a way detrimental to anyone's cause or against anyone who needed redress against wrongdoing in regards to the lawful RKBA. He has my support; if he didn't, I wouldn't still be here after two years.

As far as Doug is concerned, as has been stated in the past, our jobs as moderators/admins don't prevent any of us from having an opinion. You might be surprised to hear he feels the way he does, but just as you expect others to respect your opinions, you should respect his. Quite frankly, Doug's opinion isn't all that shocking IMHO. There are varying degrees of support on the issue of OC, just as with many other issues in life.

- Some don't believe in OC at all.
- Some don't practice OC, but support those that do.
- Some choose not to voice their opinion on the issue.
- Some feel the issue has become way too pervasive on the site; some think not enough is being done.

Regardless of Doug's opinions, he's donated of his time and his server(s) for the last few YEARS so that the PAFOA could come online with little to no cost, at no benefit or compensation to him. It's quite possible this site wouldn't exist without his efforts. He deserves thanks from all of us for that, because regardless of his opinions, his actions have, in part, allowed us all to have a forum in which we can support one another and exchange ideas and opinions.

Originally Posted by Frenchy

By the looks of it, when people talk of PAOFA and it brings in good visitors.. You’re ok. When you support PAFOA and don’t question where the money goes… You’re ok. But if you mention PAFOA and it brings National attention, If you are a person in need because your Second amendment rights are being trampled on, If you need the support of friends and members who think alike… You’re a drama whore…

This is just wrong. A mention of the PAFOA in any situation regarding the lawful RKBA, or mention that someone is a user of the website is fine, as long as one doesn't say they are a representative of the organization. If others call a person a "drama whore" as you call it because of a call for help, that's their opinion. Just like with every other online forum out there, people are more opinionated than they are in person, and everyone involved needs to toughen up and see the forest for the trees.

Your statement here also infers that those "in need" are turned away by the PAFOA. Again, while the PAFOA has never taken an official position in ANY political, legislative, or judicial proceeding, it use by its members as a vehicle for exchanging information, ideas, and support has definitely helped those "in need".

Originally Posted by PennsyPlinker

Doug has every right to think what he wants, and every right to use his property as he sees fit. However, if it is Doug and those are his opinions, I am glad to know of them ahead of time. I would hate to sign in one day only to find out that it is all gone and there have been no plans laid for another place to go.

Quite frankly I think Doug's actions speak to his magnanimity, as despite his opinions he has kept serving the PAFOA on his machine until recently. As Dan mentioned, we've cut over to new servers because the growth on this site was beating the bejesus out of Doug's poor machine

Originally Posted by headcase

Frenchy's post- minus the money stuff- is dead on IMHO. The chat log was very telling, on a few levels. I don't want this to be construed as a personal attack, but I need to make a point by referencing Doug's statement about being tired of "this OC shit, and all the drama it created". What seems to have slipped the minds of more than a few here, is that OC related incidents, and the resulting publicity, is what has been directly responsible for the massive growth of this forum's membership. Or maybe it hasn't slipped their minds. Maybe there are some who pine for the good ol' days when six or seven guys posted about trigger enhancements for their 1911s. Maybe there is a sense that something they loved is lost to them. It may well be true. It would be sad to see this thing die a sudden death, but that is what needs to happen if what it has become can't be accepted. Either pull the plug and go home, or accept what your creation has become and support and nurture it, hell, even find ways to have it support you.....


ETA~ I was posting while Danp was responding so I don't want it to look like I am responding to his post......

You're right that some "pine for the good 'ol days"; there are many members who've stopped posting actively as a result (anyone remember Aubie?). But the fact is that Dan, Doug, myself, EM, rotz, and the gorilla are still here, and for the most part we all actively participate as much as we can given our respective lives and responsibilities. So contrary to your belief, we do support "the cause" regardless of personal opinion.

Originally Posted by D-FENS

Posting chat logs on the forum = lame.

Personally disagree here. Chat is as public as this forum is. If one can be quoted here, they can be quoted from chat as well IMHO. Doesn't matter who it is, user, mod, admin, etc.

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by danp

I do plan on looking into creating a greater segmentation on the forum between gun talk and politics talk however (if I can find a good solution)

Well, as I mentioned in chat, a separate subforum for activism would go a long way towards getting the politics talk and gun talk separated. Maybe a section for activism with subforums for Legislative, Educational, etc etc so that each area of activism is more readily focussed on by those who wish to engage in it.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by mjfletcher

Well, as I mentioned in chat, a separate subforum for activism would go a long way towards getting the politics talk and gun talk separated. Maybe a section for activism with subforums for Legislative, Educational, etc etc so that each area of activism is more readily focussed on by those who wish to engage in it.

Just my $0.02, but I personally don't think this is necessary. Almost all of the activist discussions take place in the "Concealed & Open Carry" forum, as it's typically those in the process of carrying that find themselves in situations which might require support and assistance from fellow members.

[LittleRedToyota]

just to offer my 2 cents on the concept of separating "gun" vs. "political" forums...

i don't think it is a good idea because it allows too many people to ignore the political reality of the world we live in. and that reality is that, if you don't get involved to at least some extent in the political side, you may very well end up having to talk about the guns you used to have.

many of these political or "activist" issues are painful...i wish they did not exist as well...but they are reality. to deny that reality...or to withdraw from it...only sets the stage for there not being any reason to have the "gun talk" portion of the forum also.

too much (illusionary) separation between the two will, imho, only allow too many people to pretend the political issues don't exist and to ignore them...leaving the work of making sure we are allowed to continue to own and carry guns to too few.

just my take on it. as i said before, it's dan's forum and he can (and should) do whatever he feels is right.

[shefearsnothing]

ChamberedRound, thank you for the clarification. You are correct that without pafoa (which was started by Dan as I previously mentioned, yes) I would not have had the support etc. This is exactly why I said that I mentioned the members of pafoa when talking to media. I felt it would have been a huge slap in the face to have the opportunity to mention the tremendous support I was receiving and not do so. I have said many many times how much both my husband and I appreciated all of it and I will say it again. It has been invaluable every step of the way. I understand what you're saying about claiming to be a representative and of course, I would never do that. Again, I appreciate the clarification.

[Robert Kayland]

I felt it would have been a huge slap in the face to have the opportunity to mention the tremendous support I was receiving and not do so.

I deemed it a tremendous affront that you never ponied up those pasties.

/startles the dog with his sudden outburst of laughter