Pulled Over While Carrying... Advice from an LEO

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by TonyF

I would characterize the tone as "matter of fact".

i agree. i didn't really find it condescending.

i'm still not voluntarily informing, though.

1. i don't want to be disarmed and have no idea if the particular officer who stopped me would disarm me or not.

2. there have been at least two cases where police officers in PA took a gun, ran it through the illegal registry, and then kept the gun because it did not show up in the registry. this, imho, completely refuts the concept of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about". i have no idea whether or not the particular officer is going to do that. and, though i did buy it in PA through an FFL, i have no idea if my carry gun was properly entered into the "database" or not, so i don't know if it would show up or not.

3. informing actually accomplishes absolutely nothing. i am not going to shoot the officer, so he is not safer if i am disarmed. and he is not going to know i am carrying unless he asks me to get out of the car, so informing does not make me safer either.

[GunLawyer001]

What he doesn't mention is the cost of getting your gun back if the officer arbitrarily decides to hold on to it, maybe send it off for some ballistics testing, maybe keep it until you get a court order "per departmental policy".

Have you hired a lawyer to prepare, file, and argue a petition for Return of Property? Is your gun worth $1,500 or so?

If the police rarely or never arbitrarily deprived my clients of property, then I'd advise them to tell the officers about their LTCF's and legal guns. That's not the case now.

When some cops stop abusing their authority, THEN we can stop acting as though they will abuse their authority. But they have to go first.

Here's the real deal: You break no law by staying mum about your gun. You are not obliged to tell the officer whether you have anything in the car, legal or illegal. If there's one chance in 100 that this particular cop will seize your gun, that's one chance too many. For that matter, what are the odds that any particular motorist will shoot a cop? Maybe 1 in 10,000?

In fact, the odds are much higher that the cop will at least temporarily take your gun, rack the slide, drop the mag, and maybe sweep you with the muzzle a few times in the process. Cops routinely point guns at people "for officer safety", many of them don't have that same fetish for the safety of others that requires that we never sweep people with muzzles. Cops tell us that they may draw on us if they are "surprised"; try that excuse after you draw on the paperboy or meter reader.

The courts will back them up if they disarm you without any particular belief that you are dangerous. A traffic stop is enough.

So, who's at risk? The cop is likely wearing Kevlar, he's standing up facing us, his gun is easily accessible, and he can order us around. Cops have a lot of lattitude about when to draw and point their weapons We are sitting in a confined space, facing forward, and our freedom of movement is restricted. Try drawing your weapon while talking to the cop, see what happens. Few of us are wearing body armor. If traffic stops under these circumstances are more dangerous to the officers than to the citizens, then PD's are doing it wrong.

We don't exist for the convenience of the police. Police are not the enemy, but citizens shouldn't be treated like rabid dogs, either. I don't plan to shoot any cops, and I resent being treated like I do, especially if my "offense" is related to the income-producing road tax. (On a side note, speeding doesn't cause most accidents; driving while on a cell phone, tailgating, and beating red lights cause accidents, but they are harder to catch, so departments concentrate on catching people driving 65 in a 55 zone. I've NEVER seen the cops catch someone tailgating me or anyone else. But I see tailgating every day, all day, and it's like holding a gun to someone's head that will go off if a dog runs out in the road or a tire blows or someone 3 cars ahead slows down to change lanes. So it's not like the focus on catching speeders is for OUR benefit.)

Stop taking our guns, and we'll start telling you about them. The guy who tells you about his gun is not the guy who's planning to shoot you, so quit it with the seizures, OK?

[jahwarrior72]

gunlawyer pretty much beat me to it. and i believe that the "typical" cop tone is condescending. "i have a badge, so i am the law. shut the fuck up about your rights." the only time i ever informed an officer during a stop is when i was asked to step out of the car for a "random" sobriety checkpoint. when i did, he just about lost his shit, and i don't think it would've mattered when i told him. i only told him because i was getting out of the car, and was afraid my shirt would ride up. long story short, you don't ask, i won't tell.

recently, my brother was pulled over for expired tags in Taylor. the officer at one point asked him if he had any weapons in the car; my brother said he had two, and told him where they were. the officer simply nodded, and asked my brother to keep his hands on the wheel. that was the last time it was an issue. again, the officer asked him, politely. if he hadn't, my brother would have had no reason to tell him.

[PennsyPlinker]

I've had several interactions with cops while carrying, in both PA and FL, although none with open carry. I have NEVER notified them I was carrying, as it was not germane to the discussion. As GunLawyer001 has so ably stated, the officer has all the power and all the authority in the situation, and I am not giving up my gun because I have a cop with an attitude.

Actually, come to think of it, I have had some OC interaction with cops, and it has all been good so far. Of course, I have not been one of the subjects of an inquiry at the time.

[MartinBrody]

From the cops letter...

My question is why not tell the officer? What do you have to lose by telling me that you have your weapon on you?

I thought the same thing until I read this thread, what do you have to lose...APPARENTLY A LOT!

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...-carrying.html

I was placed in cuffs as they informed me that my weapon's serial number could not be found in the PICS registry, and that my permit was not showing up in their database. I was taken to the police barracks, and my vehicle was impounded.

[Philbert]

I would inform because that's how I roll. I understand why others don't.

Do not reach for the weapon unless asked to do so. Most officers, me included will not tell you to do this.

If all cops were like "most officers", we would not have a problem. I appreciate officers telling us how to interact with them, but they also need to work on their own ranks. They'd make themselves and us safer by eliminating the behavior that makes people not want to inform that they are carrying.

EDIT: I see GunLawyer already covered this. I didn't read before posting.

[Siobhra]

It sounded to me to be the honest opinion of a LEO. It sounded like he was trying very hard not to offend.

That said, I got my first handgun for one reason and only for that reason. To protect myself from cops. I had no fear to travel anywhere as long as there were no cops around. I am Gay. I have gotten the worse beating of my life from seven cops who wanted me to understand the I was not allowed in their township. Nor was I allowed to pass thru it.

Since then I have had some really good friends turn out to be cops. (It seems to happen with people we meet at ranges) But when an officer comes at me where I am the subject of his attention I am much more comfortable to have the gun on me.

I don't hate cops anymore and normally feel very comfortable in their company except when being pulled over. Heart rate goes up, etc. Mostly fear I will say the wrong thing and trouble will start. So telling an officer I am carrying is not an option. I do agree with him that it is most likely the smart thing to do but I perfer to just sit there and just yes or no the officer. Like he said if you have a problem, take it to court.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by jahwarrior72

gunlawyer pretty much beat me to it. and i believe that the "typical" cop tone is condescending. "i have a badge, so i am the law. shut the fuck up about your rights."

For the record, I wasn't referring to the experiences some of you have had with a condescending LEO, I was referring to the message from the LE in this thread.

I want to raise another point.

If someone, a non gun owner, were to monitor this forum for a couple of months, they might well draw the conclusion that gun owners are by and large a mean-spirited and condescending lot based on some of the threads in this forum .......... and paint all of us with that broad brush.

[Robert Kayland]

Another excellent post from GunLawyer001...

Jason, our instructor at the recent UTAH CCW class, had the same opinion about "don't tell unless asked", so I guess I'm leaning that way.

But I'd really like to feel comfortable volunteering the information to LEO's, as if this were a "must inform" state.

So if any of the good cops are reading, please tell your "bad" cop buddies the score about this issue and how, if they bully and abuse their authority, they're only making things tougher on themselves and the good cops.

Like GunLawyer said, 1 in 100 is too many when it comes to confiscating a weapon and having to pay dearly just to retrieve one's rightful property.

[Pa. Patriot]

"Condescending"? Ehhh, I don't think that's the most accurate description.

"Matter of fact"? Not really that either, maybe if you leave some of the facts out....

Personally, I see his commentary for what it is. It is simply what is in his best interest.

Which is fine. LEO treat us in a way that protects them from the least common denominator. They do this to protect themselves from the few bad guys.

I threat LEO's the same way. IMO, it is in my best interest to not disclose during a stop if I do not have to. To protect myself not from Mr. good cop, but from the few bad ones.