Community Bylaws State No Carrying of Weapons?

[dc dalton]

Friend of mine just got his LTCF and he was asking some questions about the where when and whys (normal newbie stuff). He then mentioned his community bylaws (one of those damn Pocono 'private' communities) state 'no carrying of firearms) ... is this legal? BTW, it is not a gated community if that matters.

He doesn't intend to OC so I don't know how they would know but he has had some run ins with the assholes that run this thing and he was curious.

I told him I thought it was bullshit, just like a town saying you couldn't carry but I wanted to check here to be 100% sure.

[Steve in PA]

Criminally he would be doing nothing wrong.

However, it would be a civil matter between your friend and the powers that be who run the community.

[mercop]

Guess they feel pretty secure in that neighborhood and expect the police to stop things before they happen.

[Dredly]

HOA's have massive amounts of power and when you buy in one you agree to all their bullshit, no obeying their rules can cause fines and penalties to be assessed under your agreement...

Tell him to move

[dc dalton]

Originally Posted by Dredly

HOA's have massive amounts of power and when you buy in one you agree to all their bullshit, no obeying their rules can cause fines and penalties to be assessed under your agreement...

Tell him to move

Not an option at this time.

We talked about these dumb assed rules they have a while ago. His Mom bought the house back in the 70s before they had all this BS and they just keep adding on the BS every year. From what he says every year when you pay your dues you are automatically agree to any of these new rules they add.

All I can say is one of THE smartest moves I ever made was telling my landlord back in 1989 I didn't want to buy the house we rented ... in Pocono Country Place! THANK GOD I SAID NO!

[gf45acp]

A couple of points.
If he's is not looking to OC, then concealed is concealed.
Disclaimer, IANAL
How the community enforces it's rules is a contractual matter. If you do not agree with the rules do not buy in the community.
From what I have seen, the community fines you for infraction, and if you do not pay they can put a lein on the property. It means nothing until you go to sell, then you must satisfy the lein to have clear title to sell.
One of the big things with these communities, in my opinion, is to get involved in the community. Go to every meeting that you can. Let the board know that you want the rule changed, as it violates you civil rights.
Campain to remove the board members that do not work to this end.

[Dredly]

Just curious... which community is it?

[Statkowski]

Two ways of removing the objectionable contractual bylaws:

a. Have the homeowner's association remove the rules.

b. Hire an attorney specializing in contract law and sue the HOA as having a contract bylaw that restricts one's civil rights (Article 1, Section 21 et al) and offends public policy.

[archon]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

Two ways of removing the objectionable contractual bylaws:

a. Have the homeowner's association remove the rules.

b. Hire an attorney specializing in contract law and sue the HOA as having a contract bylaw that restricts one's civil rights (Article 1, Section 21 et al) and offends public policy.

I'm not well learned in HOA rules, but to the best of my knowledge general contract law still appllies. That means any provision contrary to public policy would be unenforcable.

Now,the tough part, is proving that banning guns is contrary to public policy. I have sparred with many legal professionals (some on this board) who say it is impossible. I think it is possible, but a longshot. Maybe in the wake of Heller there will be some sort of judicial awakening to gun rights.

There is some very good precedent in PA to support such an argument, including the state constitution, legislative findings, state law, and some very old PA Supreme Court decisions from the 1800's (yes they are still good law - just because your modern attorney won't look at any case law prior to 1945 doesn't mean it still isn't good law.)

One thing is for sure - it will be one hell of a fight and will cost your friend a lot of money. You can expect lengthy proceedings at the trial court level (that is if the judge takes you seriously and doesn't kick your case in preliminary objections) and some action in the appellate courts.

Unless he is independently wealthy or is gunning to make a point, I would suggest he just stick his gun inside his pants and keep his mouth shut.

[archon]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

Two ways of removing the objectionable contractual bylaws:

a. Have the homeowner's association remove the rules.

b. Hire an attorney specializing in contract law and sue the HOA as having a contract bylaw that restricts one's civil rights (Article 1, Section 21 et al) and offends public policy.

Let me add that if the private community functions almost like a municipality he may have a claim that it is effectively the government equivalent of a municipality and is subject to the preemption statute in the Uniform Firearms Act.

See Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946).