Carrying on school property

[Steve in PA]

Found this over on GT. Either the charges will be dismissed or there will be a case law defining "for other lawful purpose" to mean ccw'ing.

Shippensburg News


Man charged; police say he had gun at school game


By Dale Heberlig, Sentinel Reporter

Last updated: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:48 PM EST

A Shippensburg man was charged Wednesday after he brought a gun to a Shippensburg Area Middle School basketball game, police say.

Shippensburg police charged Carl Douglas Saeman, 51, of High Road, with possessing a weapon on school property, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct after police say they had to subdue him with a Taser.

Police say Saeman was at a student/faculty game with his daughter and showed the handgun to several students in the middle school lobby, which is just outside the gymnasium, around 4:30 p.m.

Arrest papers say one student told police she overheard Saeman tell another student, "I'm going to blow your (expletive) head off."

Administrators called police, and the school principal and assistant principal approached Saeman. He showed them the .25-caliber black Beretta and also showed them his Pennsylvania permit to carry a weapon, police say.


They told him it was still illegal to carry a weapon on school property, but he disagreed, police say. Then Saeman left before police came.

Police followed van

An officer spotted Saeman's white van traveling on Eberly Road toward West King Street, where it crossed into the Treat Restaurant's parking lot and parked on the west side of the building, police say.

Officer Brad Goyt approached Saeman's vehicle, which Saeman was exiting, and ordered him back inside. Then Officer David Herb arrived, and they both asked Saeman to leave his vehicle.

The officers say he refused, and that's when Herb used the Taser on him.

Police say Saeman tried to remove the Taser probes, so the officers pushed him to the ground, where Saeman suffered an injury to his face. He was taken to Chambersburg Hospital, where he was treated and released.

Saeman was jailed in Franklin County Prison in lieu of $20,000 bail, but posted bail the following day and was released.

Shippensburg police Chief Fred Scott confirms that a person with a permit to carry a weapon isn't allowed to have one on school property.

"If you don't have a (police) badge, you don't have a gun on school property," he said.



From the PA Crimes Code;

§912. Possession of weapon on school property.

(a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
(b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.
(c) Defense.—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

[tes151]

Should be real interesting to see how that turns out. He didn't help his cause with the resisting part though.

[Steve in PA]

This is a copy of a similar incident (gun on school propery minus the stupid acts) from Luzerne County last year. Highlighted words are done by me;


Times Leader, The (Wilkes Barre, PA)
February 10, 2006
Section: NEWS
Edition: MAIN
Page: 3A
Memo:Kevin Amerman, a Times Leader staff writer, may be reached at 829-7218.



NANTICOKE POLICE CLEAR LCCC STUDENT WITH GUN / THE UNDERGRAD MIGHT STILL FACE DISCIPLINARY ACTION FOR VIOLATING SCHOOL POLICY, AN OFFICIAL SAYS.

KEVIN AMERMAN kamerman@leader.net

A Luzerne County Community College student who entered a campus building with a gun Wednesday has been cleared by authorities but could be disciplined by the school.

The student, whose name has not been released, has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, said Nanticoke Detective Capt. William Shultz. But he violated a school policy that prohibits firearms in the building.

Concerned students saw the student with the gun and notified security workers, who called police, according to Shultz and the school.

When the student was located he did not have the gun on him, but admitted to unintentionally possessing it on campus earlier in the day.

He was escorted from a campus building without incident by police, according to the college.

"We take these matters very seriously and immediately responded to protect out students and staff," said Thomas P. Leary, vice president of student development, in a press release. "A decision regarding disciplinary action will be made immediately with the primary concern being the safety of the entire college community."

Shultz said Thursday he did not have the student's name and even if he did, he "couldn't, in good faith," release it.

"The kid did nothing wrong (legally)," Shultz said. "It's just a violation of school policy."





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 2006 The Times Leader


I also emailed the reported from the Sentinel with a copy of this story and the law on weapons on school property. I advised him to have the chief read both.

[ithinkimamedic]

Intresting. I'm intrested as to how this is going to play out. The guy did himself no favors by failing to comply with the demands of the LEO's.

[Justin]

i think it was a bad idea showing it off in the school. a ccw is meant for concealed carry. even though he didnt hurt anyone or really do anything wrong, its just more ammo for the antis.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

Police say Saeman was at a student/faculty game with his daughter and showed the handgun to several students in the middle school lobby, which is just outside the gymnasium, around 4:30 p.m.

(c) Defense.—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

It would be great if the outcome went our way and set a precedent for carrying on school property with an LTC.

However, if events unfolded as the story indicates, this guy is a putz with a capital P. WTF was he thinking by displaying it?

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

This is a copy of a similar incident (gun on school propery minus the stupid acts) from Luzerne County last year. Highlighted words are done by me;


Times Leader, The (Wilkes Barre, PA)
February 10, 2006
Section: NEWS
Edition: MAIN
Page: 3A
Memo:Kevin Amerman, a Times Leader staff writer, may be reached at 829-7218.



NANTICOKE POLICE CLEAR LCCC STUDENT WITH GUN / THE UNDERGRAD MIGHT STILL FACE DISCIPLINARY ACTION FOR VIOLATING SCHOOL POLICY, AN OFFICIAL SAYS.

KEVIN AMERMAN kamerman@leader.net

A Luzerne County Community College student who entered a campus building with a gun Wednesday has been cleared by authorities but could be disciplined by the school.

The student, whose name has not been released, has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, said Nanticoke Detective Capt. William Shultz. But he violated a school policy that prohibits firearms in the building.

Concerned students saw the student with the gun and notified security workers, who called police, according to Shultz and the school.

When the student was located he did not have the gun on him, but admitted to unintentionally possessing it on campus earlier in the day.

He was escorted from a campus building without incident by police, according to the college.

"We take these matters very seriously and immediately responded to protect out students and staff," said Thomas P. Leary, vice president of student development, in a press release. "A decision regarding disciplinary action will be made immediately with the primary concern being the safety of the entire college community."

Shultz said Thursday he did not have the student's name and even if he did, he "couldn't, in good faith," release it.

"The kid did nothing wrong (legally)," Shultz said. "It's just a violation of school policy."





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 2006 The Times Leader


I also emailed the reported from the Sentinel with a copy of this story and the law on weapons on school property. I advised him to have the chief read both.

Here's the problem: Look up the definition of "school" in the gun-free schools law; it doesn't cover colleges, just K-12. So the Luzerne County college incident has very little to do with someone carrying in a high school.

There's still an argument that self-defense is a lawful activity. That's the argument that's put forward to argue that carrying concealed on USPS property is lawful, as long as you have a PA carry permit.

[Steve in PA]

The "defense" doesn't state its only good for other than K-12, its a defense for the entire section.

[NavyVet]

i know the colleges here in erie have signs about carrying weapons........isn't that the same as like a buisness , that if it's posted you shouldn't have a weapon on there property. since i've been blasted in my recent posts in other threads i will say right up front, i may be wrong on this it's just my thoughts

[knight0334]

[sarcasm]
Oh I'm sure the system will look the other way when it comes to "childrens' safety" in regards to schools vs. "other lawful purposes".


[insert accent=bleeding hearted boob]We'z gots to protect the children. [/accent][/sarcasm]

On a side note, is saw part of a PCN show about the M*****(?) vs Jefferson County case about guns in court facilities the other nite. They made reference to caselaw a few times about guns on school grounds and the it was deemed ok to ban them from the grounds. I couldn't catch the name of the case because it was kinda mumbled out, by both the Judicial Panel and by either the plaintif or defense.