a few weeks ago, i took a picture of a sign in McDade Park, a Lackawanna County park, with their rules on it. among the few rules listed, was one stating 'no firearms':
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-...tml#post357067
like i said i would, i emailed the county commissioner's office about it. actually, i emailed a few people. here's who i contacted, in order:
first, i contacted Bill Davis, the parks director. i emailed, then called a few days later. his office refused to answer any of my questions, and directed me to contact the county commissioner's office.
i then emailed the commissioner's office. after a few days, i called them. i left a message for them, and made an appointment to meet either commissioner Washo or O'Brien. a few days later, i recieved a call from their office. their assistant instructed me to contact Bill Moran, the head of their legal department, and i was assured that all of my questions would be answered by him.
so, here's me, calling up the lawyer. i left a message for him, and he called me back a day later. he went on to say (or rather pass the buck off) that the sheriff's office was responsible for the sign (a sign in a park?), and that i should speak to sheriff John Szymanski or deputy sheriff Dom Manetti.
i hung up, and called the sheriff's office. i spoke to a deputy, and told him my story. he was very sympathetic, and annoyed that every party involved chose to pass the buck to them. he also said that the sign was, in fact, violating state law, and that his boss would surely get to the bottom of it. he put me through to Manetti's line. i got a machine, so i left a message.
a few minutes later, he called back. he said he already knew of the situation, because every other party involved forwarded my emails and phone conversations to him.
he asked me to tell him again anyway. i won't repeat the conversation word for word, because that's take an hour. to be short about it, i asked him the legality of the sign, citing the Uniform Firearms Act of PA, and whether the county could enforce the park rules. his response, simply, was that although i would
not be arrested for carrying a gun in the park, i
would be escorted of the property.
?
he went on to say that although open carry on public property is not illegal, as is concealed carry with a LTCF, and that open carry is not considered 'disorderly conduct,' it could be considered a 'public nuisance'; that means, a person OCing could be treated like someone who is screaming for no reason, playing rock'n'roll too loudly on a boombox, or yelling at someone's kids: they won't arrest them, but they will escort them out of the park, until their annoying behavior stops. so, essentially, if i carry in a park, and someone calls the police, Scranton PD and Lackawanna County sheriffs will arrive to escort me to my van, and make me lock up my gun, or they'll make sure i leave the park.
here's where it gets interesting.
when i asked about this 'public nuisance' law, and where it could be applied. his response:
anywhere, at anytime, on public property.
"so, if i leave my apartment, with a gun on my belt, and walk down the street to the store, a cop can stop me and make me go back home, and leave it there? is that what you're saying?"
"well, technically, yes. it sounds crazy, but many people have the wrong idea about public property. there are rules you have to follow. this isn't the wild west, and although you
can't be arrested for carrying a gun, you
can be asked to cover it up, or leave it home."
i was more than a little shocked. "well, what if you don't have a LTCF?"
"then you shouldn't be carrying a gun! there's no good reason
not to get a license, if you're legally able to do so..."
"seriously, you're saying that a cop can tell me i can't carry a gun openly walking down the street? seriously?"
"i'm saying that can happen, yes. hello?
hello?"
i was speechless for a minute or so.
"so, to get around the Uniform Firearms Act, you're saying that a LEO can cite the 'public nuisance' laws to discourage the open carry of a firearm?"
"it's not 'getting around' anything," he said. he started to sound uncomfortable. "i'm simply saying that if you have a gun in the open, and someone calls the police, you can be cited for causing a public nuisance. something that can scare or disturb or annoy the public falls under that law, and, yes, many folks are scared of guns. you're gonna have to get used to that fact."
"soooooo, if i'm in a parking lot of a supermarket and some guy starts yelling and cursing at me, in front of my kids, while i'm putting groceries away, could that be considered a 'public nuisance'?"
"yes, and harrassment, maybe."
"okay. ugh."
"i hope i could help you out, and i hope i've answered any questions you may have had. i'm sorry if you're not satisfied with the answers."
"well, i'm not satisfied, but i appreciate your professionalism, and your honesty."
now what? i've been told by the sheriff that a cop can stop me from OCing on foot, anywhere, at anytime. the county commissioner's office making sure to keep me at arm's length, and absolutely nothing has changed. i'm not sure what to do next. any advice, you guys?
July 5th, 2008
Lackawanna county parks preemption violation.
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