My $.02 about how I think you will use a knife for SD

[mercop]

Time to stir the pot again- in my limited experience the most common offensive and defensive cut is the angle one traveling from high right to low left for a right handed person. While making this statement I am of course not taking into account "shankings' that are typically executed buy grabbing the victim with the weak hand and then stabbing with the strong hand, most often from the rear right flank area of the victim.

It has also been my experience that you need a "clearing" cut while drawing an edged weapon during and altercation before you can physically stab. I also believe that these clearing cuts are more effective if they come up and under into your assailants body instead of from over the top and out to the side. This tends to not only back them up but also puts them back on their heels slowing a subsequent attack.

Another thing that people seem to fail to take into account when planning to stab during a self defense situation is loosing your knife in your attacker after the first stab. It is not uncommon at a homicide scene to find someone with a butcher knife stuck in them. It is not because the person who stabbed them left it as a calling card but rather they were unable to remove it.

My final $.02 on it are this, you are way more likely to get a chance to slash during and altercation and drawing a knife in fight usually requires at least one cut/slash. IMHO slashing with motivation and violence of action are your best failsafe technique if you are forced to use and edged weapon to defend yourself. Nobody lets a cat scratch the hell out of them while thinking to themselves "well at least he is not biting me?"

You will have to excuse me if I seldom engage in the best knife/gun for self defense discussions. My mindset is this, a snubby that goes bang every time and any decent folder you can open with one hand will get you home safe if you have the mindset and training. Carrying only those will also encourage you to AVOID anything that would require bigger medicine.



Your thoughts in relation to this subject?

[CommonHighrise]

Hmm, I agree in places, and disagree in others. I agree on the practice of an upward slash or stab movement as your opening attack from the draw, as it leaves you in a more favorable position should the attack miss or be deflected, and it is more difficult to deflect and manipulate a low upwards slash or stab than it is a downward attack. Also, biologically speaking, the 'good bits' of your opponent are more vulnerable to attack from below. Groin, stomach, diaphragm, armpits, and throat are all fully exposed from below. Also, you have a better chance of clearing any interfering clothing on your opponent, such as a jacket.

Where I like to differ is one what the opening attack should be, as slash v. stab, as it is highly dependant on the situation. An attack directed towards a limb, with the intent of repelling that limb, is best delivered as a slash, as it is quicker, and allows your knife hand to fluidly move back to a defensive position, or to attack again. Such repelling strikes would be fitting for situations such as a gun grab, or the attacker having hold of your limb or clothing.

When the opponents attack is more direct towards your person, such as a tackle or shove, then a stab is more viable, as directed into the opponents torso. For one, it places your weapon and arm in between you and the attacker, with the direction of force directly opposing theirs. This collision of forces multiplies the strength of the stabbing attack by forcing the opponent to 'run into' your knife. Also, having your arm between the two of you puts you in the position to follow the stab with a defensive shove, aiding to help take the opponent off their feet.

The 'shank', or indirect stab, is best suited for extreme close distance defense, where you would be unable to get your weapon arm in between you and the attacker to use an effective direct stab. This is where I beleive an inverted, or icepick, grip really shines, as it lets you use your strongest core muscles to deliver a stab to your opponents back, aiming to hit such vitals as kidneys or lungs.

On having a weapon lodge, or become stuck into an opponent, is why the best targets are the softer organs, avoiding heavy bones which will trap a blade. It is why slashing the limbs is more beneficial than a stab, as theres nothing but bone underneath, so why dig deeper and risk embedding the weapon?

...damn you Mercop, dont bring up knife SD around me, Ill put someone into a coma with my rambling.

For reference on my veiws, I have my background in basic Kenpo karate, Aikido, Judo, and various military self defense tactics, and I have been through knife encounters. Just so you know Im not armchair ninja-ing.

[paul]

most people who want to shank are going to hold the knife down at their side and stab up into the body using surprise to gain an advantage. you will likely never see the knife. crazy types are going to slash wildly, I was always taught to hold the knife pointing down out of my fist with the blade towards my wrist. This allows for a hammer stab down wards using not just your arms but all of your back muscles as well, and if someone grabs the wrist of your knife hand you can wrench downwards cutting their hand to disengage. You ca still punch as well, raking back as you come back into a set position. I think that this is one of the stronger ways to grip a knife as well.

[mercop]

All good points. Of course I am talking about the average person taking advantage of their auto response. I have found the slashing though natural to target by default some worthless areas in the way of stopping a BG. That was part of the reason I developed Inverted Edge Tactics.

It is my belief that you will likely not be able to "aim" for specific targets if defending yourself with a knife so the grips that dictate specific angles that lend themselves to exploiting the body's inherent weaknesses are the ones build nuero pathways with.

I understand the mechanics of a shanking, the idea of the post was to discuss what would be the most likely scenario if using a knife to defend yourself, not necessarily defending against a knife attack. The first rule of defending against an edged weapon attack is to block or evade. The first rule of blocking and evading is to respond to the preparatory movement instead of waiting to see a knife that as stated you will likely not see but only feel.

[LastManOut]

After attending a Defensive Folding Knife class on three separate occasions, I have the method that was taught fairly well practiced.

Knife is held #1 thumb on blade edge near the "thumb hole or stud" edge in just as it was opened. At bad breath distance support hand behind head above spine joint and stab to the eye, followed with a heel of the palm driving it home.

#2 full "hammer grip" blade in, knife still held low (not Psycho pose). Knife stabbed up and into anus, pulled forward through the sex organs up to belt line. Surprisingly this cut is supposed to be very prevalent according to medical emergency rooms, and is practiced in prisons and in "knife fighting cultures" as opposed to the USA, gun culture.

#3 would be the Psycho grip, thrust down to the collar bone, cutting the caryatid (sp) artery.

[CommonHighrise]

Ive watched a few of your 'Inverted Edge' clips Mercop, and I gotta say I do like the technique in dealing with control and attack of an opponent's limbs, as it provides both a decent lock, and a cut that benefits from natural muscle movement. While Im still in the school of 'Edge Towards Enemy', it provides a good argument for carry of a double-edged dagger in self defense.

Natural points of aim v. tactical (oh no, the evil word) points of aim is a good topic to bring up. Like most things dealing with self defense, its best to think of any movement not as what its benefits are, but what happens when it goes wrong. Bringing a blade to bear directly on the chest or to the head may seem like the most devastating areas to attack, can quickly leave you comprimised. The chest has alot of bones in front (ribs, sternum, clavical) to either stop your blade, or stick it. It also has a large amount of 'slow kill' space, where a lethal wound can be delivered, but not neccisarily shut the person down fast enough. The head is small, mobile, high up, and pretty well armored compared to other larger, softer, more centrally located targets.

LastManOut, whats the name/instructor of the class you took? Those techniques, though awesomely brutal, leave the defender in many comprimised positions. E.g. the 'anus strike' would be better performed directly to the genitals only, as it negates you having to extend your weapon hand between your opponents legs.

[sluggie24]

My $.02..............


Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.....................

[CommonHighrise]

Originally Posted by sluggie24

My $.02..............


Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.....................

Wow, thank you for your brilliant and well articulated contribution to this discussion! How silly of us to ever consider the idea that the optimum weapon for every self defence encounter might not be a gun! Through your wisdom, Im now off to sell every knife, defensive flashlight, kubotan, and can of OC spray I own, and use the proceeds to buy more bullets!

We now pause for a word from our sponsors;

[noofus]

Originally Posted by sluggie24

My $.02..............


Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.....................

Turn it around. Dont bring a gun to a knife fight. Kinda hard to "fight with a gun" when someone is close enough to grab you. Try it some time with training weapons. See what happens.

Not every self defense scenario can be solved with a gun. Not every self defense scenario *should* be solved with a gun. Not all can be solved with a knife, pen or flashlight. But guess what - there are plenty of situations you might find yourself in.

If you are serious about "defending yourself" you would get some training in how to actually defend youself, not just spout cliche's on the internet.

[sluggie24]

Originally Posted by CommonHighrise

Wow, thank you for your brilliant and well articulated contribution to this discussion! How silly of us to ever consider the idea that the optimum weapon for every self defence encounter might not be a gun! Through your wisdom, Im now off to sell every knife, defensive flashlight, kubotan, and can of OC spray I own, and use the proceeds to buy more bullets!

We now pause for a word from our sponsors;

After seeing your attitude I think you should sell everything you have including your firearms. You do not appear to have the proper temperment to responsibly own firearms or weapons of any type.