Cheat Sheet ... LEO Encounters: Rights vs. Obligations

[Stack]

Okay guys/gals ... with all of the incredibly important information scattered across the boards here and with the current trend of LEO encounters with both CC and OC folks, I would REALLY love to see a cheat sheet or a list of what to do and what not to do when you find your engaged in conversation or possibly confronted about your firearm by LEO. I know this is not an easy task and there are no clear cut answers for every case, but hell, a top 10 would be a great start.

I would gladly try to put this together if I really knew what I was talking about. I am far from qualified. I don't know the laws like some others here (PA PATRIOT!! GNBROTZ!!) and certainly am not the best candidate.

Items off the top of my head : consenting to seizure of your weapon, when you can and cannot be frisked, etc... hope this makes sense.

What I can offer is to get it into a printable format and put out here on the board with hard copies if need be.

I think it would be very beneficial to everyone as long as we realize that it is not legal advice but simply a guideline to the laws and our rights.

PA Patriot - I know you're not busy and have tons of free time on your hands these days ... feel free to post a couple. And the rest of the pros can add to it is well.

Whaddya think? If it's an insane thought please feel free to tell me to piss off.


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RESERVED SPOT FOR MASTER LIST - THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED LEGAL ADVICE - PLEASE CHECK YOUR LAWS:

• It is NOT illegal to know the law and your rights
• It is NOT illegal to exercise those rights
• When in doubt, SHUT thy mouth
• PSP cannot legally run your serial number simply because they are aware of the presence of your firearm.
• If you are pulled over for a traffic violation and the officer asks "Are there any weapons in the vehicle", you are not legally obligated to answer the question. (IN PA)
• Remain calm and polite - being a wise-ass will get you nowhere fast
• If having a "consensual conversation" with a LEO, you are not legally required to identify yourself, even verbally.
• If you are being "detained" by LEO (Ask, "Am I being detained?"), you are required to verbally identify yourself (name and address), but have no legal obligation to produce (or even possess) a government issued ID.
• Always get a name / badge number of all LEO involved
• If your firearm is confiscated you MUST get a receipt for it.
• I hereby invoke and refuse to waive all of the following rights and privileges afforded to me by the U.S. Constitution:
• I invoke and refuse to waive my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Do not ask me any questions.
• I invoke and refuse to waive my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney of my choice. Do not ask me any questions without my attorney present.
• I invoke and refuse to waive all privileges and rights pursuant to the case Miranda v. Arizona. Do not ask me any questions or make any comment to me about this decision.
• I invoke and refuse to waive my Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. I do not consent to any search or seizure of myself, my home, or of any property. Do not ask me about my ownership interest in any property. I do not consent to this contact with you. If I am not presently under arrest or under investigatory detention, please allow me to leave.
• Any statement I make, or alleged consent I give, in response to your questions is hereby made under protest and under duress and in submission to your claim of lawful authority to force me to provide you with information.
• In Pennsylvania, you can carry a handgun concealed on or about your person, without a license, only in your abode, fixed place of business, and private property in which you have permission.
  Ref: 18 PACS §6106 - note: there still seems to be some debate on this one
• Disorderly Conduct & Terroristic Threats: Open carry, in a holster, lacking any other threatening behavior by the person carrying, does not meet the statutory conditions of Disorderly Conduct or Terroristic Threats since open
  carry is a legitimate exercise of a Pennsylvanian's rights, such conduct is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition that serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.

[gnbrotz]

I hereby invoke and refuse to waive all of the following rights and privileges afforded to me by the U.S. Constitution:

I invoke and refuse to waive my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Do not ask me any questions.

I invoke and refuse to waive my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney of my choice. Do not ask me any questions without my attorney present.

I invoke and refuse to waive all privileges and rights pursuant to the case Miranda v. Arizona. Do not ask me any questions or make any comment to me about this decision.

I invoke and refuse to waive my Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. I do not consent to any search or seizure of myself, my home, or of any property. Do not ask me about my ownership interest in any property. I do not consent to this contact with you. If I am not presently under arrest or under investigatory detention, please allow me to leave.

Any statement I make, or alleged consent I give, in response to your questions is hereby made under protest and under duress and in submission to your claim of lawful authority to force me to provide you with information.

List items posted above in OP.

[Stack]

Excellent!

[gnbrotz]

Will add to the OP as I think of more

[Stack]

You are the man! I meant to include you as an example in the first post - you have the experience / knowledge as well... sorry bout' that.

Thanks in advance to anyone that pitches in.

[Stack]

ADDED MASTER LIST TO FIRST POST IN THREAD - WILL UPDATE AS NEW INFO COMES IN

[P-11 shooter]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

• PSP cannot legally run your serial number simply because they are aware of the presence of your firearm.
• If you are pulled over for a traffic violation and the officer asks "Are there any weapons in the vehicle", you are not legally obligated to answer the question.

What exactly would be a good answer to this. I've always said " sir, there's nothing ILLEGAL in this vehicle.

which is 100% correct

[bigbear]

What do mean by "confronted?" If you mean a routine traffic stop, there are two ways to go about it. I know that you are not required to notify the officer that you are carrying a weapon. BUT, if you do, it may help you in the long run. I usually cut breaks to gun owners because I know that if I'm getting my butt kicked or shot at, one will probably be helping me. And if I'm told about it, as opposed to seeing it on my own, it keeps the situation from escalating.

If you mean another type of "confrontation", even though I know that this response is going to bring enough flack upon me, the first thing that I'll say is, "In a dynamic situation such as an active shooter or an armed robbery that you just defended yourself in, whatever, and you have a weapon in your hand, DO EXACTLY WHAT THE OFFICER TELLS YOU TO DO." Because, speaking from a law enforcement perspective, my first duty is to go home at the end of my shift. If I come up upon one guy holding another guy at gunpoint, and I can't tell who's who, I will tell the man with the gun to do certain things. Do them. Argue later. Once I've gotten the situation figured out, feel free to tell me what you think of me. But for your safety and mine, follow instructions.

If you are involved in a shooting, even if it's a good shoot, ask for a lawyer. You want someone there that will protect your rights and isn't directly involved, so he can hopefully see things from an objective perspective.

If you do decide to make a statement, after consulting with your lawyer, wait at least 48 hours and after a sleep cycle. This will assist with memory and allow you to calm down.

But, in all things, treat the officer with the respect that he treats you with. Notice I didn't say, "The respect he deserves." But if he's respectful towards you, show the same courtesy.

[Stack]

Oh boy .... maybe the word "confronted" was too harsh? However, in SOME cases I think the word fits just fine.

From M-W.com:

Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle French confronter to border on, confront, from Medieval Latin confrontare to bound, from Latin com- + front-, frons forehead, front

Date: circa 1568

1: to face especially in challenge : oppose <confront an enemy>

2 a: to cause to meet : bring face-to-face <confront a reader with statistics> b: to meet face-to-face : encounter <confronted the possibility of failure>

— con·front·al Listen to the pronunciation of confrontal \-ˈfrən-təl\ noun
— con·front·er noun

I meant no disrespect to you or any other LEO BigBear. If the term was offensive I apologize, but it does have more than one meaning and there are certain situations that have been brought to light where people have been confronted as in #1 above.

I should have wrote confronted with a situation where LEO are involved, and you have your weapon/firearm on your person.

Not looking for what to do after a bad situation. Looking for what to say / not say in a similar event to Dickson City , etc....

Hope that clears things up. I appreciate your input as well.

[Emptymag]

Originally Posted by P-11 shooter

What exactly would be a good answer to this. I've always said " sir, there's nothing ILLEGAL in this vehicle.

which is 100% correct

These are not the droids you're looking for...








Forgive me... I need sleep.


Actually this is a very good idea. I hope you get some good info here.