Why OC when you can CC?

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

There's a supposed LEO on another forum who was talking about how when someone he pulls over says they have a CCW permit, he pulls his gun out. Does not necesarily draw on the driver, but unholsters his gun. I thought that was messed up.

I'd agree, messed up. Maybe he should consider another line of work.
In PA, people carry guns, legally. He needs to be prepared to defend himself but from the sound of what your saying, he also has to get over the fact that non LEO carry guns.

[Pa. Patriot]

BTW, sig_dude.

Here is another link directly related to your original Q:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...-e-harvey.html

[XD40coyote]

I suppose if you look like a dirtbag and OC you will get unwanted attention, or if you have a purple mohawk and tats all over your body that are showing. I see dirty looking guys all time, dirty white shirts, unshaven, plain slobby looking- and NOTICE them- now if they also had a gun on their hip they would really be noticed. However a man dressed nicely( like in clean clothes LOL) and groomed well enough, and not sporting full body art or "look at me!" hair, is not going to be noticed so much. Not saying the guys with the tats, weird hair, or dirty shirt with slobby appearance are bad guys, just that they already have something to them that stands out to start drawing attention to them.

Frankly I think most of the public who sees someone OCing thinks they are plainclothes cops, like detectives. The 2 men I saw doing it in southern York county were dressed decent and groomed up. Casual yes, just a clean cut manner. Yes both in an area full of people who moved from Maryland, or who live in MD and shop over the line. People who moved from the Baltimore area even yet. No one was running and panicking either. The 1st guy I was being stupid and didn't talk to him LOL, the 2nd was walking too fast and I was stuck in a checkout anyway.

Now I realize some people may feel intimidated seeing someone OC, but there is no crime being committed. I even joked to one guy I know who lives just over in MD near me that he should do alot of stuff in his front yard wearing his Glock OC to try and cut down on all the jerks who use his driveway as a turnaround. He has been having alot of problems with these idiots. OC/CC on your own property is legal in MD.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

I didn't realize you are a moderator.

I meant that the fact that there is a law making all schools "gun free zones" is asinine. I did not mean that you are asinine.

If you meant me, I am sooo not a moderator, as you can probably tell by now, I don't think I have the temperment for it. As for the other, I am glad you cleared that up, but there is no law that I know of that make all schools gun free zones. Drug free zones, I have seen, but gun free zones.. I think not. Read the UFA, there are a few exceptions that are covered, including one that says(and I am quoting from memory here), " It shall be a defense, if you are carrying for any other lawful purpose." I have a lawful license to carry a firearm, and I do so lawfully for self defense purposes. How any sane person can say that that is not a lawful purpose, is beyond me. Especially after the Russian school terrorist attack, the shootings at VT and other schools, no one is going to tell me that a school is somewhere you don't need to carry a weapon.

[Carnes]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

People can post pictures of dead horses, talk about how many times this and that has been talked about and beaten to death already, tell anecdotes about how they carried onto public school property which by the way is (stupidly and unfortunatly) completely illegal, but it does not change the fact that there is no reason to carry openly. Sure, if you're in back country and want to strap on a .50 S&W for bear defense that's one thing. But to stroll into a PTA meeting or onto a soccer field openly strapped...why? What does that achomplish?

I posted the following on two other threads, and it is going to be my 'cut-and-paste' response to the OC/CC issue... So, here it is again:

Originally Posted by Carnes

Yes, I OC while I have a CC permit.

Why?

Ideally, I OC for the same reasons that LEO, Military and Security personnel do; also, I ideally CC for the same reasons that LEO, Military and Security personnel do.

I say 'ideally' because I am not currently in a situation where I can accept the risk of fighting an unjust LTCF revocation, no matter how small the risk. Therefore, I CC the vast majority of the time. (This should be changing within the next couple of months, and I can't wait!)

If I were not constrained by certain social limitations, I would prefer to OC the vast majority of the time. However, when circumstances dictate, I do not hesitate to CC.

Why OC when I can CC?

When I was deployed in support of OIF, we OC'd all the time. () Not only that, but we (my unit) made an exaggerated effort to display a readiness to use our weapons. Our crew-served weapons were constantly moving, and orienting toward suspected enemy/threat locations. Individual weapons were held ready, with muzzles pointing out of the vehicles. We maintained a very aggressive posture.

While deployed, I had the opportunity to observe the behavior of many different military units as they conducted operations. The aggressive posture was not always there. I have seen soldiers drive their trucks with just a brown t-shirt under their IBA, iPod earphones in, and rifle stowed under the seat. (seriously!) Their posture was not very aggressive.

Now, I do not have any scientific evidence to back this up, but it really seemed that the folks who did not maintain an aggressive posture got assaulted/ambushed far more frequently than those who did appear aggressive. It seemed that the insurgents liked to pick and choose who they were going to attack, and they typically went for 'soft' targets.

There were several times that we would be moving down a route in our gun-trucks, and then pass a convoy of vehicles where the gunners were sitting down in the hatch, the drivers had headphones on, and there were no weapons in sight, except the barely-attended crew served weapons. We would pass this their convoy, and later hear that they got blown-up, and shot to hell just minutes behind us.

Take from this what you will, but I am absolutely convinced that any potential attacker has to make a conscious decision to make a move on any target. If the potential target appears 'hard' BG's will most likely wait for something that appears easier to confront.

I genuinely believe that a person who OC's is clearly going to appear to be a harder target in the mind of a potential assailant.

Not only that, but with OC, I have no clothing or layers of concealment to fumble with when presenting my weapon, it is easier to fight as I train, and it is much more comfortable.

I don't want to dig through a shirt, or more, to get to my weapon. When I need my weapon, I want to have it on hand, now! LEO, Military and Security personnel only CC when necessary largely because of this.

I've been to pistol classes where students wear pistol belts, and even LBE over their clothing/jackets to mount their pistol on. Perhaps some classes focus on drawing from concealed, but I have only 'seen' civilian training focused on drawing from OC. (although I am sure there are plenty of CC focused courses available) I like to fight the way I train. If I train OC, you damn well bet I want to OC day to day.

Really, comfort is a huge factor too. For many people, it seems that the physical discomfort of IWB or whatever is more acceptable than the social discomfort associated with the fear of people making a fuss. During the summer, I would much prefer to wear shorts, a t-shirt and a BlackHawk Serpa, as opposed to layers and an IWB digging into my side.

I believe that there is a a time and place for CC, as with anything else. There are times where there is a clear and present need to have a weapon concealed. CC is great when the mission dictates that, or if the employer creates an environment where it is necessary, or some such other special circumstances.

However, for the most part, I... oh dear, I really should not say this... but... *gulp* I think CC is favorable to people who like to blend in with the rest of the sheep.

I mean really... Unless you are undercover, conducting sensitive ops or happen to be in a place where there is a sign that says, 'Visible Guns Will be Grabbed!' There is little reason to worry about CC or OC. Since OC is tactically preferable in most circumstances, I cannot justify CC beyond special situations and social pressures.

The only reason that CC is more preferable to many civilians in standard circumstances is due to societal pressures. Baaa! I hope no one takes offense, as I myself succumb to societal pressures and CC most of the time... Even so, I do not consider it to be a particularly respectable act on my part, and just because I do it, does not mean it is good.

[Emptymag]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

Another thing...not to separate "you guys" from me, but I am going to ASSume that you guys know your local LEO a lot better than I do. Have met them, know their names, whatever. I don't know a single trooper. If they run into me with a gun on my hip, they're not going to be like oh hey Sig, what's up man, how's your girlfriend...they're going to be like OK why does this guy have a gun and if his hand gets near it I'm going to draw down on him...

I didn't know anyone in law enforcement until I joined this forum.
I don't need to "know someone" to do what is legal.

You are making a lot of assumptions. It isn't unusual. When I joined this forum, my thoughts on the subject of OC were very different than they are now. Back then, I said, "There is no way in hell, I'd ever OC."
People learn. People change. I did.(Not suggesting you need to change, by the way)

I don't OC everywhere I go, but I've been doing so every day for about a year now,(weather permitting, I obviously don't carry on the outside of a coat)as I walk the dog after work. I'm in a major suburban area just outside of Pittsburgh. The houses are about 30 feet apart, it's not rural by any means.

You asked "why?"
(1) Accessibility.
I like the fact that it is right there, if needed. No digging under a shirt. Remember, I'm walking a dog, and my other hand needs to be able to keep control of my pet.

(2) Caliber.
I really prefer to carry a handgun in a caliber larger than the easily concealable .380 and .32 that I own.
I've had a Glock G19 for years, but it's role was limited to home defense, as I find it difficult to conceal.

(3) Comfort.
The only way to carry a Glock(I now have a G27 for carry)concealed(for me)is by using an IWB holster. It ain't happening. It's like shoving a 2x4 in my waistband.
Carrying in an OWB holster is the way it was meant to be.
Unfortunately, by carrying on the outside, concealment becomes an issue.(again, for me. Everyone is built differently)
I tried putting my shirt over my gun yesterday, and I felt more self conscious than I do when OCing... It stuck out like a sore thumb. It looked like I had a brick taped to my side! I'd be much more suspicious of someone I saw who was "hiding" a gun, than someone openly carrying.

(4) Because I live in America.
It's hard to explain, but if you own firearms and enjoy the fact that as an American you have the RIGHT to do so... multiply that feeling x 1,000!This is gonna sound corny, but I love this country. I appreciate what men much braver than I, gave for this country. I know that with all the negatives things we can point to, there is no place else where so many rights are guaranteed, where average citizens may speak their mind without fear, where people can own, and use firearms to defend themselves and their country. Most people have no fear when it comes to their first amendment rights. None at all. Why should it not be the same to our second amendment rights?
By choosing to exercise my rights, I experienced a feeling that I can not explain fully. You will only understand by doing.

(4) Education.
This one isn't so much of a "goal" as it is a side benefit.
If someone should stop to inquire about the "gun", I'd be happy to help answer any questions I could.
I think it could lead to interesting conversations... or harassing "conversations" by law enforcement, but the latter has not happened.



Based purely on my own, personal experience, OC does not result in the SWAT team being summoned. It does not make mothers scoop up their children, and run screaming for help. (I OCed at an ice cream stand with 30 little league players running around )
Most people do not notice the gun, and those who do, don't seem to be phased by it's presence.

I would never suggest that if you OC, nothing bad(police harassment)could happen to you. There are no guarantees. But, the way I see it, there's a better chance of me being hit by a speeding car, than running into problems because there's a gun on my hip, but I'm not going to stop walking the dog because of that possibility.

Also, keep in mind, simply seeing a gun is not a logical reason to "freak out". When you or I, or anyone else observes a person in a public setting, there is a wide array of things we take note of in order to asses a potential threat. Time of day, the person's attitude, does their dress "fit" their surroundings? There's more to it than "OMG, he has a GUN!"

One last thought. Most people seem to think someone OCing is some sort of law enforcement officer. Why then, would they "freak"?

I hope some of that made sense. It's late, and I needed to be in bed, but I wanted to give you an answer to your "why".

Welcome to the forum!

[OneLungMcClung]

Welcome to the Forum, Sig_Dude.

Normally I avoid CC vs OC nonsense like the plague; to each their own, and I could care less what your reasons are, just don't bugger me about mine. The Mafias on both sides really make it unpleasant to deal with. I also didn't read the majority of the responses for the above reasons.

First I have to say that I am of a similar vein to the other new member, TTR, in that I don't OC because of personal preference: I don't want to draw attention to my self. I live around a few people who know that I am armed and it [u]scares[u] them. They have told me this; hoplophobes to the extreme, they don't understand and don't want to be educated. Many are idealistic liberal students. I had two bad incidents that cost me some friends and associates,; both involved knowledge of me being armed. That's my personal expereince; it is why I don't OC. CC makes me more psychologically comfy, which is important - I'm not awkward or uncomfortable or scared when I CC. I feel that CC gives me a tactical advantage (which is my opinion ONLY; others will counter and say that they can draw much quicker from an OC position, and you know what? They are right.)

Coming from California, a place where, in the city, you simply aren't allowed to carry unless you are a businessman on the way to the bank (I didn't make that up - that's it, and you can forget about getting a CCW license unless you have a knife sticking out of your head), I think it is GREAT to live in a place where you can carry. CC or OC.

I thought I'd address this statement of yours:

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

but it does not change the fact that there is no reason to carry openly. Sure, if you're in back country and want to strap on a .50 S&W for bear defense that's one thing. But to stroll into a PTA meeting or onto a soccer field openly strapped...why? What does that accomplish?

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I must make one statement, a quote of my own creation that I would like to bring up:

Need should never enter into a discussion about rights.

Your statement, to me, is essentially about need. "What do you need to OC for? What is your reason?" Etc. I am certainly not putting words in your mouth, but this is how it comes across.

It is the same line of thought that the anti's use against us.

"What do you need an AK-47 for? What possible use does it have? Why do you need guns at all? You're making others upset and contributing to the 'problem'".

It is used as justification to take away something from us, because it makes them uncomfortable. I understand what you are doing, and it is the same reason that I don't carry: I don't need the grief that I have received in the past. You are stating that the person who OCs will:

1) Make other people nervous or upset.
A) That's the other people's problem, not the OC'ers. As headcase said, too much now are we worried about not rocking anyone else's delicate little boat..and that's THEIR problem.

2) By making them nervous or upset, you may bring grief upon yourself
A) This is the choice of the OCer. If they want to deal with any idiocy that they may run into, that's their right. And I have full confidence that guys like Headcase and 38_Snub and PA_Patriot can handle it. I can too.... but I don't want to. That's my right also, to CC and avoid nonsense.

3) You may get yourself involved in a "man with a gun call" and blahblahblah
A) See above. Yes it could happen. Hell, you could be taken down at gunpoint. Its your right. Yep, the cops will be pissed. Yep, you might even get your LTCF pulled if the cops is particularly pissy that day. That's the choice the OCer makes....and its not for any of us to lecture him or her.


In essence, your question

But to stroll into a PTA meeting or onto a soccer field openly strapped...why?

Is asking OC'ers to justify their reasons for OC, which is, in the state of PA, a RIGHT. And rights should never need to be justified - because that's how they get taken away.

[headcase]

OneLung is exactly right. You will see that I could not care less how anyone else carries their weapon, you do what is right for you. I get testy when someone starts questioning my, or anyone else's, right to carry as I or they feel comfortable.
+10

[Agent Smith]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

People can post pictures of dead horses, talk about how many times this and that has been talked about and beaten to death already, tell anecdotes about how they carried onto public school property which by the way is (stupidly and unfortunatly) completely illegal, but it does not change the fact that there is no reason to carry openly. Sure, if you're in back country and want to strap on a .50 S&W for bear defense that's one thing. But to stroll into a PTA meeting or onto a soccer field openly strapped...why? What does that achomplish?

Actually, there is a clause in the PA crime codes that raises doubt on whether or not carrying on school property is illegal (highlighted in bold below).

§912. Possession of weapon on school property.

(a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

The doubt raised is whether or not "other lawful purpose" includes lawfully carrying a firearm for self defense. There have not been any clear rulings on this as far as I'm aware, so I wouldn't recommend doing it, but it definitely raises some questions.

As for OC'ing, the decision to do it is completely up to you, but there are definite pro's involved. I'm not going to go into debate, but I've read story after story from people on this site having run ins with citizens that had no idea that OC was in fact legal, and managed to open their eyes because of it. To say that OC'ing does nothing but hurt our Second Amendment cause, couldn't be farther from the truth. You wouldn't want to hide your First Amendment right to free speech, so why would you with your Second?

[Brown-Bear]

Originally Posted by Sig_Dude

And I'm starting to wonder why people would try to de-rail our 2nd ammendment train by OC'ing. It's asking too much of people.