Gun vs Knife

[mercop]

This is actually one of my favorite topics, so since someone brought it up in another thread I decided it should have it's own thread.

The vast majority of police or armed citizens when asked what they will do if confronted by an edged weapon say they will shoot the guy. Typical knife to a gunfight comment. I have evidenced and will do so to anyone who wishes to see it that within seven yards the knife in the hands of a dedicated attacker will beat the gun 9 out of 10 times. We can this with a training knife (or shock knife) and airsoft. This is a holstered gun and a sheathed knife. A holstered gun vs a drawn knives will be even more devastating. Don’t get me wrong, the guy with the gun will often land periphery rounds that in real life will have no effect on the locomotion of the subject or the mechanism of the attack.


Force on force training where a guy stands 10 yards away in broad daylight showing waving a knife at you has little to do with the reality of defending against a spontaneous knife attack.


You will need open hand skills to gain time and distance to access your pistol. It is not hard to learn if you are dedicated and realize that the gun is not a talisman whose mere possession will keep evil at bay.

[JoeWilliams]

Believe it or not, we were taught that if caught by surprise with a knife at close range, our best bet was to catch the blade in an arm and spray or shoot the BG while he was trying to get it back out. The theory being that if we weren't prepared for the attack and didn't have weapon of some sort in hand in hand, we were going to be stabbed. So best to take it in a relatively bony area, hope you could even trap the blade in the bone, and gain time to respond and save yourself, and bleeding in the lower arm can be controlled well enough to gain time to get medical attention. I'm interested in your thoughts on such a tactic.

The one time I got stabbed, I didn't take it in the arm. I took it in the shoulder, right through the body armor. I didn't shoot or spray, or engage in fancy kung fu. Purely reactive, I punched the bitch across the room. Attack happened so fast it was over before I realized it had begun.

[DCChris]

I agree with both your observations of the situation. Do you think that things written about such confrontations in gun mags are beneficial to the average person whose only experience with a firearm confrontation has been against paper bad guys?

[Brown-Bear]

Damn right. In USCG LEO school we watched several training vids and got to talk to officers who survived situations like this. In the vids the officers were responding to a "suspiscious" person. This person pulled a knife while well with-in the reactionary gap (21 feet). The guy with the knife stabbed the shit outta the officer everytime. Close quarters the knife beats the gun everytime. When the man with the knife has already formed an attack plan.

BB

[mercop]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

Believe it or not, we were taught that if caught by surprise with a knife at close range, our best bet was to catch the blade in an arm and spray or shoot the BG while he was trying to get it back out. The theory being that if we weren't prepared for the attack and didn't have weapon of some sort in hand in hand, we were going to be stabbed. So best to take it in a relatively bony area, hope you could even trap the blade in the bone, and gain time to respond and save yourself, and bleeding in the lower arm can be controlled well enough to gain time to get medical attention. I'm interested in your thoughts on such a tactic.

The one time I got stabbed, I didn't take it in the arm. I took it in the shoulder, right through the body armor. I didn't shoot or spray, or engage in fancy kung fu. Purely reactive, I punched the bitch across the room. Attack happened so fast it was over before I realized it had begun.

First of all I am glad it worked out for you and not for them

I am not a fan of that defense you spoke about, but have heard it before.

The major failure of most edged weapon training is that they ignore the fact that the vast majority of edged weapon attack victims report that they did not see the knife and thought they were being punched. If your stimulus for a defense is seeing a knife, then you will not be able to defend until you identify a knife in the hand. That is too late.

We also know that it is the last few stabs or cuts that prove fatal. The idea is to control the movement of the arm no matter what, best case scenario between the elbow and wrist. Destroy the elbow, then the knee. No attack and no locomotion.

This is a principle, not a technique.

[4XLT]

i have never had any training with knives other than being a bouncer and having a few incidences , my first lesson was when someone yells knife do not grab the guy from behind around both arms, he had the knife out already and stabbed me on the top of my thigh.
at that point i grabed his throat and through him to the ground and muttered something about killing him when i was tackled by the other bouncer along with a few other people.

next encounter i saw he had the knife in his hand and like Mercop said , as he swung at me i grabbed him just above the wrist to control his arm and movement, a few cuts later and his jaw and cheekbone broken it was over..

after feeling a knife in your thigh trust me you dont want to block a strike with your forearm if you dont have to . if someone is coming at you with a knife , reach in yuour pocket and throw something... ANYTHING at thier face , hopefully it will give you enough time to get your (weapon) out and put it in use before you get cut.

[reverserboy]

Interesting topic/thread. I've had this discussion with other gun owners & most of them would only rely on their gun without even considering any other responses.

At arms distance would you try to create distance & draw your gun or go hand to hand?? At that close distance I think you would get gutted if you went for a holstered gun without at least shocking your attacker.

You will need open hand skills to gain time and distance to access your pistol. It is not hard to learn if you are dedicated and realize that the gun is not a talisman whose mere possession will keep evil at bay.

Most people who carry a piece don't want to hear it. I would however tend to agree with you.

[Brian@ITC]

If I may jump in here...

For those of you who think that you can outdraw a drawn knife, or even one from concealment, you might want to watch this video! The attacker draws the knife from concealment at 5, 7, and 10 feet. To think that you are going to be able to successfully react and draw your gun is unrealistic. Going for your gun right away is NOT your best option. Doing so may get you seriously injured or killed.

http://www.right2defend.com/vidclips.htm


Train hard, train often, and train REALISTICALLY!!!
_______________
Brian K. LaMaster
President-Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Instructor-Counter Force
Modern Warrior Talk
"High Impact Training"
“Serious tactics for serious situations!”
Check our Advanced Pistol Fighting Course out in the April 2008 issue of SWAT Magazine! The article is titled Unarmed and Armed Combatives

[angus]

Originally Posted by 4XLT

i have never had any training with knives other than being a bouncer and having a few incidences , my first lesson was when someone yells knife do not grab the guy from behind around both arms, he had the knife out already and stabbed me on the top of my thigh.
at that point i grabed his throat and through him to the ground and muttered something about killing him when i was tackled by the other bouncer along with a few other people.

The other bouncer tackled you? You were stabbed and this guy who is supposed to be your backup and partner jumped on you instead of the BG? I'd be a bit ticked off about that.

[mercop]

Even though I love guns the vast majority of my classes are based on open hand, stick and edged weapons. As a traditional martial artist who teaches combatives it is my opinion that traditional martial arts ar to the reality of an edged weapon attack as what traditional LE pistol training has to do with the reality of a shooting.................nothing.