Self Defense or Defense of Others

[showman]

I am considering appling for a LTCF and have a question. Just last night, my uncle was the victim of an unprovoked thrill attack and assaulted by a group of 18-21 yo thugs and I could not come to his aid because the they claimed they had a gun as I approached to help. Subsequently, I ran for cover and they did fire three shots into a window of where I took cover. Thank god I made the decision to take cover.

I did have my cell and called 911 and it took 5 minutes for the police officers to arrive. Those five minutes were the longest and could have been fatal.

One is in custody and they are looking for the other three. One of them they are looking for assaulted a police officer and struck him on the head with a 40 ounce beer bottle. The officer will be okay.

Now the question:

If I had a LTCF and had a firearm in my possession (whether I knew they were armed or not), would I have been legally justified to fire as they were beating the hell out of him as he lay on the ground defenseless?

My second question is regarding a stun gun or taser. Are they legal to posess in PA with a LTCF and would have I been able to use one of those in this situation?

Hopefully Steve can answer.

Thanks so much,

Paul

[Steve in PA]

Yes to both questions, however you do not need a LTC to possess a taser for personal defense purposes. Also, if you cannot own a firearm, you cannot own a taser.

§506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.

(a) General rule.—The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in using such force to protect himself against the injury he believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is necessary for the protection of such other person.


§908.1. Use or possession of electric or electronic incapacitation device.

(a) Offense defined.—Except as set forth in subsection (b), a person commits an offense if the person does any of the following:
(1) Uses an electric or electronic incapacitation device on another person for an unlawful purpose.
(2) Possesses, with intent to violate paragraph (1), an electric or electronic incapacitation device.
(b) Self defense.—A person may possess and use an electric or electronic incapacitation device in the exercise of reasonable force in defense of the person or the person’s property, pursuant to Chapter 5 (relating to general principles of justification), if the electric or electronic incapacitation device is labeled with or accompanied by clearly written instructions as to its use and the damages involved in its use.
(c) Prohibited possession.—No person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) may possess or use an electric or electronic incapacitation device.

[LorDiego01]

you dont need a gun.. you need a machinegun for people like that..

[jdlv4_0]

Originally Posted by LorDiego01

you dont need a gun.. you need a machinegun for people like that..

+50, happiness is a belt fed weapon!!!

[showman]

Thanks for the response. I have read some of the other self defense and defense of others posts and this would have definitely been the situation to use. I was in fear for mine and my uncles life. At least firing a warning shot to disperse them or clipping them in the leg would have been options.

What would you have done?

[jdlv4_0]

Dont't fire a warning shot, don't shoot for the leg, aim at the biggest target (center mass of the body) and squeeze, not jerk the trigger.

[showman]

BTW, here is the link to what the local paper had to say. They got it wrong. I ran into my uncles apartment for cover while he lay there until the police arrived. They never get stories right. Three bullet holes in the wall directly a foot to my right as I was running in. God Damn close call that I never want to endure again.

http://www.timesonline.com/site/news...d=478569&rfi=6

This has changed my life forever and is a wakeup call for the kind of world we live in today. On Tuesday I am going to apply for my LTC and will be on the market for a good practical self defense handgun. Any suggestions would be helpful or if anyone has one available for sale that would be great. I live in Beaver County and frequently travel to Harrisburg and Philly so I would be happy to travel to pick one up for the right price.

Thanks,

Paul

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by showman

I was in fear for mine and my uncles life. At least firing a warning shot to disperse them or clipping them in the leg would have been options.

What would you have done?

it's very hard for anyone to say what they would have done without being in the situation. there are so many little variables you don't really "get" unless you were there.

however, warning shots or shooting someone in the leg are prolly not good ideas.

it's a nightmare scenario because several of them could have guns.

i am no expert, and i wasn't there, so i don't know the situation, but, in general, i think drawing while moving to cover (if available...you mentioned there was some cover) would be a good start.

from there, either a *verbal* warning or, if they are using a weapon (bat, pipe, knife, etc.) on your uncle possibly a center-of-mass shot to the one currently hitting him with the weapon with no warning.

don't get tunnel vision and only focus on one of them.

whatever you do, if they all have no fear of death and attack you--especially if they have guns--you may well be SOL.

some people might advise to do nothing...or just take cover and call 911 like you did even if you did have a gun. personally, i could not just stand by and watch my uncle being beaten possibly to death, though...so i would probably do something.

at any rate, given that you did not have a weapon, you probably did exactly the right thing. you and your uncle may well have just ended up dead if you tried to intervene.

i hope your uncle is, or at least will be, OK.

just my 2 cents.

[27hand]

Originally Posted by showman

Thanks for the response. At least firing a warning shot to disperse them or clipping them in the leg would have been options.

What would you have done?

If you pull that firearm, you do so to protect you and yours and NOT for intimidation or warning.

That gun comes to a ready position until such time as you feel the absolute need to use it and no other options are viable. Perhaps and hopefully the attack stops when that happens. When the sights come on target, you have already made the decision to shoot. If the situation continues to deteriorate and you have to shoot, you continue to shoot until the threat stops. If the BG's turn and run at any time, you stop and assess where they all are.

If shots are fired and the situation defuses, you call 911. You do NOT speak to the police to justify your actions. You call your lawyer who will handle the aftermath. You will likely spend time in custody until everything is sorted out.

If you give chase or shoot while they are running away, YOU have just become the aggressor and what was an act of self defense will go south for you.

Now, all that being said, a million different scenario's can and will be put forth as to what you can and can't do as well as what other options you should have followed or could have done.

Don't listen to any of them as well as what I posted. That is what I would likely do,right wrong or indifferent.

What YOU should have done or should do is get some professional firearms training and answers from someone in a legal capacity. This will provide you with your own personal guidelines as to what actions are necessary and available to YOU.

Just my 2 cents.
This is not legal advice as i am a construction worker and not a lawyer. End result is YOU and only you are responsible for your actions.


27hand

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by showman

On Tuesday I am going to apply for my LTC and will be on the market for a good practical self defense handgun. Any suggestions would be helpful or if anyone has one available for sale that would be great.

you'll get all kinds of opinions on a good gun. i like glocks personally. glocks are very reliable and can take a beting and keep on workin' just fine, so buying a used one is generally OK. that helps keep the price down...not that they are terribly expensive new.

the best idea is to go to a range that rents guns and try out several. the key is to get one that fits your hand well and that you feel comfortable with.

in addition to the brand, you need to decide on caliber. as with brand, you'll get all kinds of opinions on caliber. i like 9mm myself. not a lot of recoil...making follow-up shots easier. they tend to have higher capacity mags. perhaps most importantly, ammo is cheap so you can practice, practice, practice a lot without breaking the bank.

perhaps the best advice is to get some training to go along with your new gun.