Allegheny County- thought I'd share.

[wboggs]

Originally Posted by Tokamak

I live in allegheny county and appreciate your story.

I usually go concealed and have often wondered what the effect of open carry in this county would be.

I once had my gun accidently show at a store when my coat was open and I put my arm up on the back of seat. I realized that I was showing when I saw a number of people looking at me. I smiled, lowered my arm to cover my gun and no one said a word or called the police, etc. I was worried that one of the clerks might think I was going to rob them and panic but no one did.

I'm in Agony County too and hear that open carry in Pittsburgh (though perfectly legal since we're not a First Class City) is most likely to get you a free ride to jail. Of course these are the same police that tell me that it's a jail-able crime to video tape a crime being committed in public. I'm not saying Pittsburgh Police are stupid.... they're just dumb; it's like they have their own little country here.

I'm all for open carry and think that in and of itself could dramatically curtail violent crime; I mean if the Omaha Mall had thousands of people with guns strapped to their sides, I think nut case would have stayed home or found a place full of suckers without guns. What I dont like about it is you may learn who the bad guy is (behind you in line) as he grabs your open carry gun and shoots you. Remember as easy as it is for you to draw you weapon, it's equally easy for a bad guy behind you to do so.

Now there are a million theoretical arguments about this subject with minisquel changes in the facts but think about this; how many cops get shot with their own gun? Concealed carry has a HUGE advantage; nobody knows where the gun is but you.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by wboggs

...how many cops get shot with their own gun? Concealed carry has a HUGE advantage.

Retention IS a legitimate concern for the OC'er
No doubt about it.
However, the above example is only minimally relevant at best. Police put themselves (intentionally) in the way of criminals. IOW, they corner them, which often provokes extreme reactions or desperate attempts to "escape" from violent criminals. The every-day citizens not only does not put criminals in those situations but does their best to avoid them all together.

[wboggs]

LET ME REMIND YOU AND EVERYBODY ELSE...

Originally Posted by wboggs

Now there are a million theoretical arguments about this subject with minuscule changes in the facts but think about this; how many cops get shot with their own gun? Concealed carry has a HUGE advantage; nobody knows where the gun is but you.

I REFUSE TO GET INTO A PISSING MATCH ABOUT THIS, OK?

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Retention IS a legitimate concern for the OC'er
No doubt about it.
However, the above example is only minimally relevant at best. Police put themselves (intentionally) in the way of criminals. IOW, they corner them, which often provokes extreme reactions or desperate attempts to "escape" from violent criminals. The every-day citizens not only does not put criminals in those situations but does their best to avoid them all together.

Lets focus on the "YOU DONT KNOW WHO IS STANDING BEHIND YOU, IT MAY BE AN OPPORTUNIST BG WHO SEES YOUR GUN AND SAYS "BINGO".

This information is for individuals to consider if they carry openly not to start a pissing match on Christmas.

Merry Christmas.

[XD45]

in all reality i'd think OC in philly would be the easiest place as there is a citable code that says you need a LTCF to OC in a city of the first class.. So as long as you have your LTCF it should be a nonissue.. Not saying it would happen that way, but none the less its the only part of any PA law that references OC if I remember correctly.

[wboggs]

Originally Posted by XD45

in all reality i'd think OC in philly would be the easiest place as there is a citable code that says you need a LTCF to OC in a city of the first class.. So as long as you have your LTCF it should be a nonissue.. Not saying it would happen that way, but none the less its the only part of any PA law that references OC if I remember correctly.

You would think but if they are anything like Pittsburgh, they make up their own laws and take you to jail. Then you get to hire an attorney and get it straightened out. Not worth it to me.

[Statkowski]

18 Pa. C.S. §6108. Carrying Firearms on Public Streets or Public Property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or

(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license)

18 Pa. C.S. §6109. Licenses.

(a) Purpose of license. - A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, n.4 “In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. (Only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)”

Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279; 681 A.2d 152 (1996) "...in Philadelphia County, the legislature requires that a person must be licensed to carry weapons openly and not concealed from sight, whereas in all other counties of Pennsylvania, weapons may be carried openly without a license…”

[wboggs]

Statkowski, dont for a minute think I dont understand that, that law exists. What you're missing is that with the Pittsburgh Police, that law doesn't matter, they will take you to jail and then you have to fix the mess; which you definitely will be able to. But what is proving a point worth to you$$?

And it's not that they need taught a lesson, this has actually happened more than once; so proving a point wont work for the future.

Believe me, if I could afford to move out of the City, I would be long gone. Pittsburgh is in many ways like a Third World Country. If it were up to me, on every street that crosses the City line, there would be a sign that says, "If you didn't grow up on the other side of this sign, turn around and run like Hell".

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by wboggs

LET ME REMIND YOU AND EVERYBODY ELSE...



I REFUSE TO GET INTO A PISSING MATCH ABOUT THIS, OK?

I said I agree on retention. Again, one of the biggest concerns for the OC'er.

I also agree with you on the specific concern regarding someone grabbing your gun to use against you. Probably unlikely, but definitely a real threat. One that I guard against every single time I OC.

My point is the LEO example is weak. Bad guys don't walk up to leo and snatch their guns because they feel like it. LEO gun grabs happen most often because of the struggle that ensues when a LEO tries to detain/arrest a crook. IOW, initiated by the LEO.
IMO, It's not a good example to use regarding civilian OC and it doesn't prove any "huge advantage" to concealing. JMHO.

Really only a minor point. No need to get huffy. It's not a pissing match unless you make it one.

[wboggs]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

My point is the LEO example is weak. Bad guys don't walk up to leo and snatch their guns because they feel like it. LEO gun grabs happen most often because of the struggle that ensues when a LEO tries to detain/arrest a crook. IOW, initiated by the LEO.
IMO, It's not a good example to use regarding civilian OC and it doesn't prove any "huge advantage" to concealing. JMHO.

Maybe in some ways weak but LEO's know they are dealing with a BG yet still on occasion lose their weapon and get shot. On the other side of that coin, how often does a LOE stop a BG and go to his trunk first and occupy both his hands with a microwave oven while in the vicinity of/dealing with a BG wanted for murder or an opportunist that is desperate?

To me the advantage of concealed carry is there's no way a BG knows where the gun is or most important that there even is a gun; that takes all issues of any gun completely out of the picture and cant possibly put any ideas in his psycho mind. Verses out in the open where everybody can see and you may very well have both or the wrong hand occupied with something while some psycho, desperate BG opportunist takes advantage of the situation. I dont know how anybody could not see the advantage of concealed carry over open.

[LittleRedToyota]

lest everyone who reads this thread think everyone who lives in pittsburgh hates it, i don't. i actually really like living in pittsburgh.

also, there are several stories on this forum of people open carrying in pittsburgh without getting hassled...though there are also stories of people being told by police officers that they cannot open carry.

i generally do not open carry because i like to carry concealed for my own personal reasons, but i would not be afraid to open carry in pittsburgh and have on a couple of occassions without incident.