Carry of firearms in State Parks

[Zef_66]

Okay, I know this has been discussed before on here. And I have read most everything I could find. And it still bothered me that DCNR can make their own regulations that are totally against that of the UFA. So I emailed DCNR and I just got a response today. But first my email:

From: Zef [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:47 PM
To: ra-askdcnr@state.pa.us
Subject: Question regarding Concealed Carry of a Firearm in a State Park

To Whom it may Concern,

I have a question regarding the legality of carry a concealed firearm in a State Park in Pennsylvania.

I have been issued, by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, a License to Carry Firearms. Under Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code, § 6109, the purpose of a this license is described as: "A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth."

In reading DCNR's website about various state parks, I find the following statements: "Firearms and archery equipment may be uncased and ready for use only in authorized hunting areas during hunting seasons. In areas not open to hunting or during non-hunting seasons, firearms and archery equipment shall be kept in the owner's car, trailer or camp."

I find these two statements conflicting and was left wondering if I was allowed to legally carry a concealed firearm in a state park. Upon further investigation, I have found Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code, § 7506. to read: "(a) Promulgation of rules and regulations.--The Department of Environmental Resources, Pennsylvania Game Commission and Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission may promulgate rules and regulations governing conduct, other than conduct regulated in § 7505 (relating to violation of governmental rules regarding traffic), on Commonwealth property within the jurisdiction of that agency. Such rules and regulations shall be reasonably related to the preservation and protection of such property for its specified or intended use, or to promote the welfare, safety or protection of those persons using such property, shall be consistent with existing law and shall be posted in a manner reasonable likely to come to the attention of persons using such property."

In reading over the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, I find that if I am legally allowded to carry a concealed firearm throughout the Commonwealth. Also, the Department of Conservation of Natural Resources' (formally DER) laws shall be consistent with the existing laws of the Commonwealth. But the regulations on being forced to disarm and keep my firearm in my car when hunting is not in season is not consistent with the laws of this Commonwealth.

Considering all of the above, can you provide a clear statement on the legality of carrying a concealed firearm on my person in a state park or other area not authorized for hunting, or any area during non-hunting seasons?

Thank you very much,

Zef

The response I received:

From: Dinsmore, Michael <midinsmore@state.pa.us>
To: ***@gmail.com,
CC: "Warrick, Rachel" <rwarrick@state.pa.us>,
"Donovan, Ryan" <rydonovan@state.pa.us>,
"Dysinger, Ryan" <rydysinger@state.pa.us>,
Date: Dec 11, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Question regarding Concealed Carry of a Firearm in a State Park

Mr. Zef,

This message is in response to your email dated November 20th, 2007, concerning the Department's prohibition against carrying firearms in state parks. Pennsylvania courts have consistently held that the constitutional right to bear arms is not unlimited and may be restricted in the exercise of police power for the good order of society and the protection of citizens. To directly answer your question, It is unlawful to carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise within a state park except as allowed by 17 Pa. Code § 11.215. Here is a link to the entire section http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/01...1/s11.215.html.


The Department is authorized under Section 7506 of the Crimes Code to promulgate regulations governing conduct on its property for the “preservation and protection” of the property and “to promote the welfare, safety or protection” of persons using the property. Because the Department believes that allowing visitors to carry firearms in state parks could compromise public safety and order, it has promulgated a regulation at 17 Pa. Code § 11.215(5) prohibiting the carrying of firearms in state parks, except while engaged in hunting.

This policy of prohibiting concealed firearms in state parks has and will continue to provide for the adequate protection of all park visitors. This policy reduces the possibility of accidental discharges as well as other related accidents that may occur when an individual is in possession of a firearm.



Factors which may contribute to an unsafe condition in a state park include:

* Close proximity of campsites, which at times leads to confrontation
* Camping units such as tents are not securable
* The reduced protection afforded by tents and campers as opposed to permanent structures

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me.

I want to respond, but what is everyone's thought on this? Should I send a reply with a CC to the AG?

[axmdr40]

Derek,
I applaud your efforts to open this discussion with the DCNR. They obviously have no grip on reality for this situation as revealed in this statement:

that allowing visitors to carry firearms in state parks could compromise public safety and order

I still don't agree with their rational that they may legally prohibit concealed carry. I haven't read the laws and I'm certainly no lawyer, but
this:

Pennsylvania courts have consistently held that the constitutional right to bear arms is not unlimited and may be restricted in the exercise of police power for the good order of society and the protection of citizens.

seems antithetical to this:

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
- Pennsylvania Constitution, Section 21

[Emptymag]

...firearms and archery equipment shall be kept in the owner's car, trailer or camp."

Factors which may contribute to an unsafe condition in a state park include:

* Close proximity of campsites, which at times leads to confrontation
* Camping units such as tents are not securable
* The reduced protection afforded by tents and campers as opposed to permanent structures

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me.

Contradiction?

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Emptymag

Contradiction?

It's driven by the foolish belief, wishful or what's referred to as "magical thinking," that making guns illegal in the park means there will be no guns in the park.

Those of who have not had too much of the coolaide and don't go for the popular thought belief that wishing makes it so know that's usually not the case. All it means is that defenseless campers in nearly indefensible positions (sleeping in a tent unarmed) will fill the park. There will shortly be some nutcase tragedy as in the "gun free zone" mall in Nebraska, and the magical thinkers will call for still more control.

You know the drill.

Stay away from the park. It's dangerous. No gun zones attract nutcases like flames attract moths.

[Zef_66]

Do you think that the attorney general would be good to CC my next email to? Would it do any good?

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Zef_66

Do you think that the attorney general would be good to CC my next email to? Would it do any good?

i don't think it would do any good.

they aren't violating any state laws...other than the state constitution...but that gets violated all the time...the AG won't care about that.

[Siobhra]

They can do ANYTHING they want if not challenged. They rely on the cost of fighting them to keep you from fighting. In other words, they know they are outside the law.

That is why the ACLU fights everything. The powers that want to restrict the rights of those who have an 'in' with the ACLU don't want face them.

That is why if I win one of the big Powerballs I will start a GCLU (Gun Civil Liberties Union) that will go after the people who pull stunts like that. We have to make them as scared of us as others are of the ACLU.

[gnbrotz]

HB 1292 seeks to remedy this situation.

[CZ40P]

License To Carry Concealed Firearm

Concealed means concealed. Nobody knows.

If you have to use your firearm to save your life, use it!

And if some ranger charges you with breaking a DCNR regulation pay the silly little fine and enjoy the rest of you life!

[Nate]

Originally Posted by CZ40P

License To Carry Concealed Firearm

Concealed means concealed. Nobody knows.

If you have to use your firearm to save your life, use it!

And if some ranger charges you with breaking a DCNR regulation pay the silly little fine and enjoy the rest of you life!

I was under the impression that you could spend time in jail in addition to a fine for carrying in a state park. Have I been misinformed???