just got off the phone with delco sheriffs office

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by PeteG

One has to understand that an official not complying with a time limit in a statute is not "breaking the law" in any criminal sense. It is not complying with the law, but that is not always a prosecutable offense.

thanks for clearing that up pete.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by PeteG

Here is the fact: YOU have jurisdiction.

just out of curiosity, what is the requirement to have standing to actually act on this...

1. can any PA resident bring a suit against the sheriff?

2. do you have to be a resident of the county in question?

3. do you have to have had the sheriff take longer than 45 days to issue you your LTCF?

4. do you have to meet number 2 and then been charged for carrying without an LTCF after the 45 days, but before you actually got your LTCF?

thanks.

[tbonean21]

I AM 23 YEARS OLD I HAVE A GLOCK 17. AN I AM ABOUT TO TAKE MY application for a LTCCF, TO THE DELCO Sheriff AND I HAVE BEEN READING ABOUT HOW SOME OF YOU HAVE BEEN HAVE trouble ON HOW LONG IT TAKES AN OTHER THINGS. I NEVER HAVE BEEN IN TROUBLE OUR ANYTHING LIKE THAT DO YOU GUYS THINK I WILL HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING MY LTCCF because OF MY AGE . AND ALSO I WORK FOR A SCHOOL district I AM worried ABOUT THE sheriff CONTACING THEM I GIVE THE PHONE NUMBER BUT NOT THE extension OF MY BOSS LOL AN THE SHERIFF CAN TAKE AS LONG AS HE WANTS. AS LONG AS I GET MY LTCCF


HOPE TO HERE BACK TOM

[PeteG]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

just out of curiosity, what is the requirement to have standing to actually act on this...

1. can any PA resident bring a suit against the sheriff?

2. do you have to be a resident of the county in question?

3. do you have to have had the sheriff take longer than 45 days to issue you your LTCF?

4. do you have to meet number 2 and then been charged for carrying without an LTCF after the 45 days, but before you actually got your LTCF?

thanks.

Standing can be tricky, and the courts are constantly "raising the bar" so fewer and fewer people can challenge government action. In the case of a permit, however, it is pretty straightforward. Anyone who applies for a permit and has to wait more than 45 days for a decision is personally aggrieved, and has standing to proceed.

In the right circumstances, one who is himself aggrieved may proceed on his own behalf, and on behalf of all the other people whose licenses are being unlawfully delayed.

There is a lot of new case law (since about 1997) that says official misconduct does not give rise to a federal civil rights claim unless it is so egregious that it "shocks the conscience of the court." This is one way that conservative judges have limited civil rights actions.

Unfortunately, nobody knows what will or will not "shock the conscience of the court." (Really.)

We do know some things. For example, it is now settled that if one can prove that zoning officials are refusing to issue a permit to which an applicant is legally entitled, and they are doing so deliberately, with ulterior motive, and knowing they are violating the law, it does not "shock the conscience of the court," and it is not considered a federal civil rights violation. (Justice Alito helped create this law when he sat on the 3rd Circuit. But at least we don't have to worry about gays getting married.)

I therefore doubt one could collect any damages by reason of having to wait 55 instead of 45 days for issuance of a license. I do think that an injunction might issue requiring the Sheriff to obey the law, and ordering the County to pay counsel fees. This would particularly be the case if one could show a pattern of systematically delaying license applications affecting many people.

An alternative approach would be to appeal to the Court of Common Pleas of the involved county on "day 46." One could seek a writ of mandamus compelling the Sheriff to perform a non-discretionary duty in a timely manner. The duty is to either issue the permit or articulate why, under the specified statutory grounds, the permit should not issue, within 45 days of application.

There are probably other state law avenues of relief. The above are all that come immediately to mind.

My point is that going from one public official to another, with your hat in your hand, asking them to save you from their buddy in the office down the hall, will not often work. If you want public officials to obey the law, make them obey the law. It is lame, and almost always unproductive, to stand around asking why the government officials don't restrain themselves.

[wboggs]

Originally Posted by PeteG

It takes time and money. (If you win you are supposed to get your costs and legal fees back; but that does not always happen.)

And they know that and taunt you to the limit snickering all the way home. Bastards.

[PeteG]

Originally Posted by wboggs

And they know that and taunt you to the limit snickering all the way home. Bastards.

Don't get mad. Get even.

[Aran]

Originally Posted by tbonean21

I AM 23 YEARS OLD I HAVE A GLOCK 17. AN I AM ABOUT TO TAKE MY application for a LTCCF, TO THE DELCO Sheriff AND I HAVE BEEN READING ABOUT HOW SOME OF YOU HAVE BEEN HAVE trouble ON HOW LONG IT TAKES AN OTHER THINGS. I NEVER HAVE BEEN IN TROUBLE OUR ANYTHING LIKE THAT DO YOU GUYS THINK I WILL HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING MY LTCCF because OF MY AGE . AND ALSO I WORK FOR A SCHOOL district I AM worried ABOUT THE sheriff CONTACING THEM I GIVE THE PHONE NUMBER BUT NOT THE extension OF MY BOSS LOL AN THE SHERIFF CAN TAKE AS LONG AS HE WANTS. AS LONG AS I GET MY LTCCF


HOPE TO HERE BACK TOM

I'm 21 and just got mine with very little hassle in Indiana County (Hah. I can say that after the fact, but I felt very hassled before I got it.)

[tbonean21]

Originally Posted by Aran

I'm 21 and just got mine with very little hassle in Indiana County (Hah. I can say that after the fact, but I felt very hassled before I got it.)

how come you flet hassled before you got it

[Aran]

My county Sheriff's requirements, and then having to go get new references because he didn't like that one had an out of county home address (Despite living in-county, she gave me her across-the-state address and I figured I'd give it a shot)

[LittleRedToyota]

pete...thanks for taking the time to write up that reply. it was very informative.

i'd give you some rep points, but it's telling me i have to spread some around before giving ya any more.

(btw, i share your frustration at the replacement of "political conservative" with "social conservative" in today's american political landscape...seems like nobody in politics believes in rule of law or limited government anymore.)