Lady's Concealed Carry

[tl_3237]

Recently moved from PRNJ and are newbies in the CCW world though have been gun nuts for may decades. Awaiting our CCWs and have started shopping for equipment.

Trying to decide what's best pistol and carry technique for my wife. We are considering 9mm (not .380) and have looked at smaller guns such as Kahr and Kel-Tec.

Any ladies out there with preferred pistol and carry techniques (IWB, belly band, etc) for both casual dress and formal dress?

[TonyF]

I just finished advising a friend at work on outfitting his wife with a handgun. You should take a hard look at the S&W M&P Compact model. The M&P's replaceable backstrap make these pistols sized very well for shooters with small hands.

Until recently, I've been recommending a glock 19 to most women but since purchasing a full size M&P, I feel it's a better choice due to its shorter backstrap-to-trigger dimension.

Pistols such as the kahr and kel-tec's are very concealable but there is a significant trade-off regarding "shoot-a-bility". Clint Smith, director of Thunder Ranch, wrote an article in the sep/oct issue of american handgunner on the S&W Centennial revolver. Within that article he mentions "... this type of handgun (small and light) requires much -- if not more -- skill to shoot well" and "... the smaller the gun the harder it is to shoot well". This is not an insignificant issue.

As to carry modes, there are certain issues related to belt mounted holsters that tend to conflict with fashion. After discussing all the pro's and con's, this fellow's wife has decided the best way to carry while dressed casually is the fanny pack.

Pistols carried in the purse can be subject to being stolen (purse snatchers). And again, belt carry holsters require certain compromises related to fashion that many women don't want to make.

Gila Hayes (Firearms Academy of Seattle) wrote a terrific article in the August issue of SWAT magazine "Armed Women, Smart Choices". I strongly advise you buy a copy and both you and your wife read it. Strangely, she doesn't mention the M&P but IMHO it certainly fits her criteria.

[RoyJackson]

I hope a lot of ladies respond to this thread...

However, I'm going to suggest a .38 snubby. Easy to shoot, and in a realistic situation, quite adequate stopping power.
I'd also suggest a DAO, or my favorite, SA/DA such as the Taurus 851 Protector for reduced snag potential.
These are good purse guns or can be carried on the hip, if desired.

Many women wear clothing that is more form fitting then we guys. This would limit the size of the gun unless there is a covering garment (jacket or blazer).

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by RoyJackson

However, I'm going to suggest a .38 snubby. Easy to shoot,

I couldn't disagree more.

They are not easy to shoot except perhaps at contact distance and in such cases (muzzle within inches of the target), any handgun is "easy" to shoot.

Just about every woman who has been through our classes has had difficulty with J-frame size revolvers. And I've seen them struggle both with the pain from recoil and flinch from muzzle blast.

Granted, in a training course they're firing upwards of 150 to 200 rounds per day but nevertheless, maintaining proficiency demands that volume of live fire at least on a monthly basis. If it hurts or it is uncomfortable then she will simply not practice and it becomes self-defeating.

Read Clint Smith's article in the sep/oct issue of american handgunner that I cited. He has forgotten more about instructing than I will ever know but my experience teaching our one day handgun classes has led me to draw the same conclusions.

The Gila Hayes' SWAT article delves even more deeply into the issue of recoil vs. size.

[Rule10b5]

While my wife carries a S&W 640 (an all steel .357 double action only snubbie) and can outshoot most people carrying full size duty guns, I have to agree with Tony about their shootability. Snubbies are a pain in the ass to learn to shoot well, and damn near impossible to master. You can be a better shot with a Glock 26 or 19 without even half of the effort. If your wife is not going to train obsessively, I would not suggest a snubbie, no matter how easy they are to conceal.

In terms of other alternatives to a snubbie that a woman can conceal on her person (purse carry stinks, but you have to do it sometimes) take a look at the Glock 26, the (already mentioned) M&P Compact, the Walther PPS (the new single stack 9mm), or a Springfield XD Subcompact. If you must get her a Kahr, go with an all steel model, like the MK9. While many have had good experiences with Kahr products, both of the polymer Kahrs I've owned were complete non-functional disasters -- with repeated trips back to the factory that didn't fix them. While Kahr makes a lot of excellent guns, they also make a bunch of lemons. Why risk getting a lemon, when there are other alternatives that you know are going to be good? Same thing goes for Kel-Tec. Just my personal position on the matter -- I know a lot of good, smart people who know a lot about guns who carry Kahr and Kel-Tec, but I won't carry them anymore after my experiences. Also take a look at the Springfield EMP in 9mm if you like 1911s. A buddy of mine bought one a few months ago -- it shoots and carries like a dream. Probably not a good gun for purse carry, though.

In terms of carry method, my wife carries in a pancake belt holster from Strong Holsters, with a thumb break. Or she carries it holstered, in her purse, when dress doesn't permit belt carry.

Is a snubbie in the purse my first choice for her? Hell no. But does it beat no gun at all? Yes, definitely. While I'd prefer that she carry her Glock 35 everywhere, that just ain't gonna happen.

The bottom line here is to provide your wife with as many choices as she wants, both in terms of guns to test out, and ways to carry them. She needs to see what she likes and what works for day in and day out carry. As I've learned, picking anything for my wife is a bad idea.

If either of you would like, I'm happy to meet you both down at Targetmaster in Chadds Ford with a selection of small carry guns and belt holsters that you can try out. I have a variety of snubbies, Glocks, and 1911s.

[RoyJackson]

Originally Posted by TonyF

I couldn't disagree more.

They are not easy to shoot except perhaps at contact distance and in such cases (muzzle within inches of the target), any handgun is "easy" to shoot.

Well, to each his or her own...

One issue...and only the woman can answer this...is if she's willing to dress around the gun as many of we guys do.
I can only carry a full sized gun if I'm wearing a sports jacket, so I don't even dress around the gun that often.

When I say easy to shoot, I'm talking 5 or 6 rounds...probably shot within 5 or 6 feet.

I definitely agree about carrying in a purse, but I know two women who do exactly that.

[Emptymag]

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again here...
Besides the recoil issue, the long heavy trigger pull could be a problem.

For our first handgun, EVERY shop was pushing a revolver on us. The problem MY wife had was pulling that heavy trigger. The typical response to that problem is to pull the hammer back, making the trigger ready for a light "pull".
Again, MY wife had even MORE difficulty doing that than pulling the trigger!

Then we started looking at autoloaders... Now the problem was pulling back the slide. UGH!!! We looked for a while and I was just about to give up on finding something she could easily operate. Then, from somewhere behind me, I heard that unmistakable sound. Cha-chick! I turned around from the gun case I was looking into and saw her standing there with a smile on her face.

Glock G19. The Glock slides seem to be easier to pull back than many others. She likes it.

[Rule10b5]

The trigger pull problem on a snubbie can be easily fixed by buying a different model. Nobody disputes that the heaviest pulls on a snubbie are those on the S&W J frames, followed closely by the Ruger SP series. I won't carry a stock j-frame because I hate the trigger so much. When I buy one I immediately send it off to be worked on.

The Colt Detective trigger, on the other hand, has always been in a completely different universe in terms of weight -- much, much lighter. It uses a leaf mainspring rather than the j-frame's coil spring.

And the S&W K frames have famously fantastic triggers. My Model 19 snubbie has the best DA trigger of any revolver I own.

As far as the j-frames go, though, you can fix alot of that with a proper trigger job -- without changing springs. Just smoothing up the trigger makes it feel like you're cutting several pounds off the pull weight, and you don't risk light primer strikes. All of my revolvers have stock springs, but they've all been slicked up so much that you think you're shooting a gun with light springs. The S&W performance center does great work, as does Rick Devoid at Tarnhelm (I send most of my guns to Rick for work).

[Emptymag]

Rule,
Good to know.
These are the things you won't likely learn at a gun shop. It's a business, they want to sell you the product they have in the case.
Hmmm... I could "use" a revolver...

[Rule10b5]

Originally Posted by Emptymag

These are the things you won't likely learn at a gun shop. It's a business, they want to sell you the product they have in the case.
Hmmm... I could "use" a revolver...

Yep. In most shops every gun is a "great little gun" until it isn't.