When to pull my weapon?

[amagi]

I am a student at Villanova and several of my friends were walking to their house off on a side street near route 30 in Bryn Mawr (a street called "Thomas Ave"). 8 Students in total. They were robbed at gun point on this particular side street. It got me to thinking when and why I would pull my gun, and under what circumstance I could use it?

I know what the law, but interpreting the law and a situation I may be put into are not always crystal clear. I understand that I must be "afraid for my life, or in danger of being severally injured...ext" in order to use deadly force. What if a Bad Guy pulls a gun on me and says "give me your money". I feel as though my first reaction would be to shoot him. If anyone sticks a gun in my face, I would probably interpret that as a life threatening gesture. Would I be wrong in assuming so? What if I was in a WaWa and someone pulls a gun on the clerk? Do I have a duty to pull my weapon and aim it at the Bad Guy and demand he disarm himself? Do I have the right or obligation to do such a thing? If it was just me and the bad guy, it would be different, I am only making the decision for myself. I was just wondering what your take on this is?

Thanks.

[unloved]

Originally Posted by amagi

What if I was in a WaWa and someone pulls a gun on the clerk? Do I have a duty to pull my weapon and aim it at the Bad Guy and demand he disarm himself?

No.
IMO, demanding he disarm would be a very bad move.

Do I have the right or obligation to do such a thing?

No. You may be justified in using deadly force in such a situation, but you have no legal obligation to do so.

If something went wrong, like you shoot BG, then BG shoots clerk anyway, you might be vulnerable to civil action. I am not an attorney however, so it's certainly possible I'm wrong.

[neshek770]

first off if someone has a gun in your face you will not be able to get your gun out you will have to use your hands run or submit depending on the distance
you cannot count only on your gun to protect you you need some ma training and mindset read on combat /sharpening the warriors edge
also in mho if you expect your gun to come into play you you will need to feel something is wrong and have the gun out and hidden before tshtf
one last thin as far as when can you shoot only you can know that when it goes down but you will know when its time




ps remember the mind is your weapon the gun is just a tool

[Steve_NEPhila]

You present quite a few tactical scenarios that are impossible to answer. Perhaps exploring the theory instead of actual "what if's" would be more useful to you.

First you must understand that your draw and aim time will be nowhere near the amount of time it takes one to pull the trigger. If someone has the drop on you, your options are limited. You will never clear leather if their gun is aimed at you. So, do not let them get the drop on you. Sounds easy, but it takes situational awareness to see what is coming. That whole "he came out of nowhere" is bullshit. Scientists have yet to discover this nowhere, and how people travel in and out of it. What really happened was the person was caught off guard while they had their head up their ass. Keep your head on a swivel and observe your world, armed robbers is not the only dangerous thing on this planet.

In theory you carry a weapon to defend yourself and those you choose to defend. The goal being survival, every time.

If a gun is in your face your opponent has given up the advantage his firearm gives him, distance. If someone is that close you have many tactical options. Remember, these assholes robbing people never practice safe gun handling techniques and when that gun is pointed at you your life is already very much threatened. Any kind of distraction or change of attention will benefit you. A couple of months ago the ayoob files had an account of a seventy something man fighting off two armed robbers after they essentially got the drop on him and the sandwich shop he was patronizing.

It went down like this (roughly): robbers come in to the shop and announce the hold up, one had a shotgun if I recall correctly. One of the armed robbers escorts the old guy (pilot and former marine, yet in his seventies) to the bathroom and tells him to lay on the floor. The old man played like he was having a hard time and turned to the side obscuring the side of his body that had a compact .45 in a holster. The old man plays feeble, draws while knocking the robbers gun to the side and puts three in the robber, thigh, torso and head. The robber was dead.

The second robber heard the commotion and looked down the hallway to where the bathroom was. Seeing the old man with the pistol, the second stick up man decided to get health conscious and take up running. The old man landed a .45 slug through the second guys aorta as he was running out of the door. I think the second guy ran a couple hundred meters before taking a timeout in the prone position. The second guy survived, surgeons really can work magic.

Take from that what you can. There is no clear answer. However, if you ever are so unfortunate to have to shoot someone you need to understand a very important rule. Never talk to the cops about anything. Not one word. Here is an educational lecture that I am sure you can appreciate.



I know some of my fellow PAFOA members may get annoyed at my devotion to the church of shut the fuck up. It is necessary to understand that a vow of silence is necessary for membership.

Practice with your carry piece and look around...

[amagi]

Ya, I figured all of this. I never want to use my weapon, but I would if I needed to. However; I feel as though it's difficult to come up with hypothetical responses to different situations as there is a infinite number of scenarios that could play out.

Obviously if someone already has a gun drawn on me, I wouldn't be able to go for mine or I'd be shot. I've consulted a Lawyer my NRA instructor pointed me to for legal advice on the matter. He said it depends on the situation and how the prosecutor or LEOs would interpret said situation. If I was truly justified in using my weapon. I understand it's a last resort.

Are there any NRA concealed Carry courses I could take? I already have an Advanced Pistol certification.

[Steve_NEPhila]

I left something out that I want to additionally cover. No fucking warning shots. Warning shots send lead into the community that really should not be there. As a private citizen, your first warning shot should be aimed at center of mass.

Here is a great class, yet you are late because it started today:
http://www.classicpistol.com/training_classes.asp?id=19

[unloved]

Originally Posted by amagi

If anyone sticks a gun in my face, I would probably interpret that as a life threatening gesture. Would I be wrong in assuming so?

No, you wouldn't be wrong.

What if a Bad Guy pulls a gun on me and says "give me your money". I feel as though my first reaction would be to shoot him.

Shooting him may not be practical. Attempting to draw while he's got you gunfaced, probably wouldn't be the best option.

[unloved]

Originally Posted by amagi

Are there any NRA concealed Carry courses I could take? I already have an Advanced Pistol certification.

The NRA offers Personal Protection Inside the Home, and Personal Protection Outside the Home.
There are also lots of other training courses available.
Take a look at the Training Courses forum.

[beerhunter]

Originally Posted by amagi

I am a student at Villanova and several of my friends were walking to their house off on a side street near route 30 in Bryn Mawr (a street called "Thomas Ave"). 8 Students in total. They were robbed at gun point on this particular side street. It got me to thinking when and why I would pull my gun, and under what circumstance I could use it?

I know what the law, but interpreting the law and a situation I may be put into are not always crystal clear. I understand that I must be "afraid for my life, or in danger of being severally injured...ext" in order to use deadly force. What if a Bad Guy pulls a gun on me and says "give me your money". I feel as though my first reaction would be to shoot him. If anyone sticks a gun in my face, I would probably interpret that as a life threatening gesture. Would I be wrong in assuming so? What if I was in a WaWa and someone pulls a gun on the clerk? Do I have a duty to pull my weapon and aim it at the Bad Guy and demand he disarm himself? Do I have the right or obligation to do such a thing? If it was just me and the bad guy, it would be different, I am only making the decision for myself. I was just wondering what your take on this is?

Thanks.

If it took a period of time and this encounter for you to consider when is the appropriate time, then you might want to put the gun in the safe location until you have some training. IMO, you should have considered a lot of different scenarios prior to an initial carry outing. I am not trying to be a dick, just saying that you need to consider a few basic scenarios and what could potentially happen before it happens to you so you have a increased opportunity of making it out alive and not in jail. I am not saying you should have a crystal ball to look at, just consider training. I know I am looking forward to professional training when possible.

Sometimes it is best for everyone involved to have a very good witness.
Don't plan to go Clint Eastwood on everyones ass.
I suspect each scenario will be different as each BG will have different motives and character traits that will not be interpreted at the time of the crime.

[Oak]

While there are lots of books and courses on the tactics of personal defense, I humbly suggest having a solid understanding of when you would be legally justified in using your weapon.

Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" is a great short summary on this topic. I firmly believe that a well-worn copy belongs on the bookshelf of anyone who carries for personal defense. The author has a law enforcement background is well known with a great reputation.

Tactics and training are very important, but, IMHO, judgement is more important, and Ayoob's book will get you on the right path and a ways down it to boot.