When to pull my weapon?

[Shawn.L]

Originally Posted by unloved

Shooting him may not be practical. Attempting to draw while he's got you gunfaced, probably wouldn't be the best option.

Originally Posted by Adam-12

Right. If the gun is literally IN your face, then you're much better of shooting him with his gun than your own. A gun within arm's reach is as good as yours, if you know what you're doing. (And therefore, if you draw on a man, keep the hell back from him.)

DISCLAIMER: Don't even dream of such a thing until you've actually been taught how to disarm a man. If he has the drop on you, give him your dough and hope for the best.

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...ing-areas.html (Retention Training - redux (Pittsburgh and surrounding areas))

just sayin.......

[Chazman321]

1. Never use something that can be used against you... If he is 3 feet away, armed or not, he is in arms reach of your weapon and can make it HIS weapon...
2. Be aware of your surroundings at all time, situational awareness will save your but 99% of the time...
And my favorite:
3. You cannot outdraw and out shoot somebody who is pointing a gun at you. Maybe they'll miss, maybe you'll miss, but it's generally a bad idea and will result in you being in a bodybag...

-Chaz

[son of the revolution]

To the OP

Study whats called the " OODA Loop " and " The Tueller Drill" . The OODA Loop was developed by an Airforce Fighter Pilot relating to dogfighting , but the four steps Observe, Orient , Decide , Act all apply equally well to personal self defense. As others have already pointed out , if the BG already has his gun out, your already WAY behind the curve and are forced to react instead of acting , advantage BG.


The Tueller Drill was developed by Sgt Dennis Tueller back in the 80's and is the standard for virtually every police agency and self defense scenario. What Tueller discovered was that an attacker can cover a distance of 21ft in roughly 2.5 seconds. That is faster then just about anyone can realize there's a threat and draw a weapon. Therefore, anyone thats at or within 21 feet of you can be considered to be an immediate threat. Now twenty one feet seems like a pretty good distance away from you, until you realize just how fast they can close that distance. The following video on the Tueller Drill took place at only 15 feet, you'll see just how quick the attacker is on the guy.







Generally speaking OODA refers to

1) Observing your opponents actions, looking for an opening. This can occur at any time during the encounter. At the outset, half way through , or near the end, and at any time in between. If your confronted on the street and the BG looks away for a split second because of a distraction of some sort, that split second opportunity might be your chance to act, miss it and well............. He could also be distracted if you make an effort of slowly complying and as you hand over your keys/wallet/etc make a show of nervously dropping them before they reach his hand. Human eyes are instinctively drawn to movement and his first and automatic reaction will be to look down at the objects you just dropped as they fall. Same thing happens if lets say your carrying a soft drink or coffee. Making a motion to put it down ( or anything for that matter ) and then suddenly throwing it at his face will almost always trigger an involuntary reaction for the other person to throw up their hands to protect their face, you just created an opening.

2)Orienting is what it sounds like, orienting yourself; either your physical body in order to go hand to hand , or orienting by moving either in retreat or to a better position , behind a car , etc. Remember there is a HUGE difference between cover and concealment , cover may stop incoming rounds, concealment wont.

3) Decide is also self explanatory. Decide on your course of action, whether that is retreat , attack , or waiting to evaluate how the situation develops. The point being , as Jeff Cooper said , even if its wrong do SOMETHING !

4) Act , again , self explanatory. There was a great line from the John Wayne movie " The Shootist" . Booker explained that he won gun fights not because he was the fastest draw or the most accurate shot , but because he wouldnt hesitate to act when the time came. If you've come up with a decision on when your going to act , and what your going to do , then DO IT !! Hesitation will almost always get you killed.


As others have said, definetly get as much hand to hand training as you can , even if its just sparring with your buddies or practicing scenarios with Airsoft weapons. Trying to disarm someone that has a gun held on you CAN be done , but you have to be confident in your ability and decisive when you act, cause if you screw it up , your almost guarenteed to get shot for your efforts. That being said , Krav Maga has some excellent weapon take away moves. But again you have got to be committed to training , especially your mental state. Running through scenario's over and over and over , and then when you think your good , do it some more . That will train your brain to act without conscious thought , on autopilot so to speak. You also have to get your brain around the idea of actually having to destroy your opponent by whatever means available.

Here's some examples of whats possible.









Hope this helps

[granuale]

Originally Posted by amagi

I am a student at Villanova and several of my friends were walking to their house off on a side street near route 30 in Bryn Mawr (a street called "Thomas Ave"). 8 Students in total. They were robbed at gun point on this particular side street. It got me to thinking when and why I would pull my gun, and under what circumstance I could use it?

Damn, I used to live 2 blocks away when I was at 'Nova.

Originally Posted by amagi

I know what the law, but interpreting the law and a situation I may be put into are not always crystal clear. I understand that I must be "afraid for my life, or in danger of being severally injured...ext" in order to use deadly force. What if a Bad Guy pulls a gun on me and says "give me your money". I feel as though my first reaction would be to shoot him. If anyone sticks a gun in my face, I would probably interpret that as a life threatening gesture. Would I be wrong in assuming so?

You already answered the question. The law requires that you reasonably be in fear for your life.... If you were prosecuted for the shooting, you would need to prove you were reasonably in such fear. Do you think someone pulling a gun on you would put you in reasonable fear for your life? I do. Do you think most jurors would? That's the answer. It's the answer to every hypothetical involving deadly force.

While I think the hypos can be helpful, especially for the new shooter, at the end of the day the best standard is not to shoot unless you don't have a choice. That way even if you are prosecuted and convicted you know you did the right thing.

Also, I do agree that being faced with a gun is probably too late to draw, in the example you gave, the guy would have to cover 8 people. I'm positive given the circumstances I would have found the second I needed to draw and fire. And yes, I would have drawn and fired given those circumstances. Also I usually belt carry at 3:30 so reaching for the gun, and reaching for the wallet are identical motions. My draw and fire time from a firm grasp already on the gun is fast enough where I might do so even if I were alone and the gun was on me. Or I would likely fumble the wallet on the ground, and use the distraction to draw and fire. Then again since I've never been confronted with the situation, I might just piss my pants and cry for my mommy

[PA Traveler]

You've been given some great advice here.

G-E-T T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G !!!

As soon as you begin to train, you'll realize how much more training you'll really need... it will be the beginning... not the end.

[jengelh6471]

Originally Posted by granuale

Damn, I used to live 2 blocks away when I was at 'Nova.



You already answered the question. The law requires that you reasonably be in fear for your life.... If you were prosecuted for the shooting, you would need to prove you were reasonably in such fear. Do you think someone pulling a gun on you would put you in reasonable fear for your life? I do. Do you think most jurors would? That's the answer. It's the answer to every hypothetical involving deadly force.

While I think the hypos can be helpful, especially for the new shooter, at the end of the day the best standard is not to shoot unless you don't have a choice. That way even if you are prosecuted and convicted you know you did the right thing.

Also, I do agree that being faced with a gun is probably too late to draw, in the example you gave, the guy would have to cover 8 people. I'm positive given the circumstances I would have found the second I needed to draw and fire. And yes, I would have drawn and fired given those circumstances. Also I usually belt carry at 3:30 so reaching for the gun, and reaching for the wallet are identical motions. My draw and fire time from a firm grasp already on the gun is fast enough where I might do so even if I were alone and the gun was on me. Or I would likely fumble the wallet on the ground, and use the distraction to draw and fire. Then again since I've never been confronted with the situation, I might just piss my pants and cry for my mommy

My concern would be how do you prove that he pulled the gun on you first that made you afraid for your life?

[granuale]

Originally Posted by jengelh6471

My concern would be how do you prove that he pulled the gun on you first that made you afraid for your life?

The seven witnesses? The fact that you are a college student with no priors and the scumbag has a rap sheet a mile long. Do you think the prosecution would argue you just had the urge to kill someone and that someone just happened to be a criminal with a gun on a street in Bryn Mawr? Some things you need to worry about, this isn't one of them.

[son of the revolution]

Originally Posted by jengelh6471

My concern would be how do you prove that he pulled the gun on you first that made you afraid for your life?

In the scenario you described there would be witnesses.

[jengelh6471]

I'm sorry, I meant to put in there if there wasn't any witnesses.

[PA86]

Off of Lancaster in Bryn Mawr?

Jesus.

What's Thomas Ave near? I've probably passed that street a million times but I don't know which it is.